Alloys: early/middle bronze, mithril, steel

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

While I wait for more people to answer my question, I have another conversion to game terms.

I gave temperatures in degrees. My bladesmith book has temperature for metal colours while working steel on an anvil. It's in fahrenheit, so I have to do a couple conversions. The chart is for the anvil, not smelting, so it only goes to yellow-white. There's a couple warnings: when working tool steel never get it hotter than orange. Above that the carbon starts to burn. That causes the metal to spit like a firework sparkler, and carbon content drops. It says never heat 440C stainless steel above 2100°F (yellow) for the same reason.

Oh, I also have a coal forge and anvil at home. I tried forging myself. Got a couple lessons by a master blacksmith. I did once leave a piece of metal in the forge too long. It came out shorter, so the end completely melted off, and the end did spit. Good thing I practiced with scrap metal. Judging colour is tricky, the master smith promised to take me on as a student. I offered to pay him. Each time I talk to him he says he will, but still hasn't. A number of years ago I met another individual, a master bladesmith. He gave me a tour of his shop and sold me a video of him making a pattern welded sword. Yup, hand made with coal forge and anvil.

Anyway, back to game stuff.

1200°F = 649°C = dull red

1400°F = 760°C = red

1500°F = 816°C = cherry red

1600°F = 871°C = full cherry red

1800°F = 982°C = orange

1900°F = 1038°C = orange yellow

2000°F = 1093°C = yellow

2200°F = 1204°C = full yellow

2400°F = 1316°C = light yellow

Ok, that has more graduations than the game. I interpret that last one as "yellow-white". Smelting nepouite ore is off the scale, so let's interpolate: 1453°C = 2647.4°F, and the jump from red to orange is 400°F, and from orange to full-yellow is another 400°F, so this looks like white. But cassiterite requires one notch above brilliant-white, so let's go with that. That means smelting nepouite requires the same temperature as cassiterite, pretty simple.

Refining matte to make unshaped nickel does not require as much heat. It should drop at orange.

And reacting salt with sulphuric acid to make hydrogen chloride only requires 200°C. That isn't even a colour, that's just "hot" on the firepit scale.

we're working off the table found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation

[rbdyck 8]

we're working off the table found here: http://en.wikipedia....ermal_radiation

Thanks! That means the final colours I recommended remain the same.

we are aware of how metallurgy works in real life, this isn't a fuck up.

Please don't make this a negative thing. This whole category of topics is for suggestions. I started by wanting to recommend mithril. When reading about the ancient form of bronze used in the middle and late bronze age, I realized it perfectly matched the description of mithril from "Lord of the Rings". The fact that mithril isn't fictional is something people don't know. This is a simple alloy that could be easily added to the game and people would want. Then I read about your black/blue/red steel. Umm, the rest of TFC is just so wonderful, but these fictional alloys spoil it for me. Please don't get defensive.

[kotoroshinoto 97]

in other words, its black body radiation, the color is dictated by the spectrum emitted by a substance at a given kinetic energy. The average energy is expressed (and experienced by us) as Temperature. Every temperature has its own distinct emission profile. (it eventually does reach the point of higher energy light particles than visible light)

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

...no love for iridium?

I has a sad now

[rbdyck 8]

I'm going to go ahead with more detail. Next is sulphuric acid. As mentioned, this is necessary to make hydrogen chloride, which is necessary to refine nickel. That's why this is in an alloy discussion.

First history.

Sumerians had a list of types of vitriol that they classified according to substance's color. Some of the earliest discussions on the origin and properties of vitriol are in the works of the Greek physician Dioscorides (first century AD) and the Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD). Galen also discussed its medical use. Metallurgical uses for vitriolic substances were recorded in the Hellenistic alchemical works of Zosimos of Panopolis, in the treatise Phisica et Mystica, and the Leyden papyrus X.

Islamic alchemists JÄbir ibn HayyÄn (c. 721 – c. 815 AD), Razi (865 – 925 AD), and Jamal Din al-Watwat (d. 1318, wrote the book MabÄhij al-fikar wa-manÄhij al-'ibar), included vitriol in their mineral classification lists. Ibn Sina focused on its medical uses and different varieties of vitriol

The basic method is to produce sulphur oxide somehow, then pass that through water to form sulphuric acid. Pure yellow mineral sulphur is the best source, but baking coal will convert it into coke and also generate yellow smoke. That smoke is sulphur dioxide gas. To produce concentrated sulphuric acid, you need vanadium dioxide as a catalyst. SO2 combines with air to form SO3, which mixes with water to make acid. You can combine SO2 directly with hydrogen peroxide, but that wasn't available in period. Other methods of making sulphuric acid require modern stuff (1700s or later).

[rbdyck 8]

Vanadium is required for vasco steel anyway. Vanadium occurs in some deposits of magnetite, a common iron ore. Processing pig iron to make steel will produce slag. If the original deposit of magnetite contained vanadium, then the slag will contain upto 25% vanadium. But that is by smelting while blowing oxygen in. The game calls for working pig iron on an anvil to make wrought iron, then forge welding that with pig iron to make steel. Technically that would be pattern welded steel, but that's the good stuff anyway. Since the only smelting process in game produces pig iron, I would say if you use a bellows with a bloomery, and only with a bellows, then there's a random chance the slag will contain vanadium. Slag with vanadium would be dark red. This vanadium slag is next mixed with sodium chloride (table salt) at 850°C. The result is soaked in water, a glass potion bottle would do nicely. Vanadium salt will dissolve while regular slag is left at the bottom. Pour off the liquid into an empty potion bottle, leaving the slag in the first. Add hyrochloric acid to the solution, then boil dry leaving "red cake". Should that be done in a firepit, or brewing stand? We are talking about a potion bottle. In real life that red cake is then combined with calcium metal to produce vanadium metal and salt. That salt will be a mixture of sodium chloride (table salt) and calcium chloride (road salt). But then how do you make sodium metal without electricity? Could we "cheat" and just say the red cake can be alloyed with steel directly?

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

...no love for iridium?

I has a sad now

sorry i was kinda drowning in all the unneccisarrily complicated chemistry happening on this thread

i think iridium is a good idea

maybe there could be randomly generated meteor landings (extremely rare mind you) that would be made of some "meteor stone" that would drop iridium ore items they couldnt be made into tools as is, but if you alloy it with iron, you could get some pretty awesome tools and armor

btw im not metallurgey major, so i dont know what color refined iridium is, isnt it silverish?

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

sorry i was kinda drowning in all the unneccisarrily complicated chemistry happening on this thread

i think iridium is a good idea

maybe there could be randomly generated meteor landings (extremely rare mind you) that would be made of some "meteor stone" that would drop iridium ore items they couldnt be made into tools as is, but if you alloy it with iron, you could get some pretty awesome tools and armor

btw im not metallurgey major, so i dont know what color refined iridium is, isnt it silverish?

Yeah, you could have explosions generate at a similar frequency to lightning, at a particular randomized strength along a normal distribution. A number of iridium ore from 0-7 would then spawn in the crater, the size corresponding with the size of the explosion. 0 means it spawns a block of magnetite ore instead.

And honestly iriduim most closely resembles the group 1 metals (sodium, calcium, etc...)

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

don't expect mithril any time soon. sorry if I came off as a little bad tempered, but your posts seem to communicate that you don't think we've done our research.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

don't expect mithril any time soon. sorry if I came off as a little bad tempered, but your posts seem to communicate that you don't think we've done our research.

is that a figurative 'not happening ever', or a literal 'maybe much much later'?

Also thoughts on iridium? It is pretty much the best steel alloying metal ever.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

is that a figurative 'not happening ever', or a literal 'maybe much much later'?

Also thoughts on iridium? It is pretty much the best steel alloying metal ever.

1. I can't say no, but I'd like to

2. probably not, sorry =P

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

1. I can't say no, but I'd like to

2. probably not, sorry =P

1) you'd like to? idk man, arsenical bronze is lookin' pretty neat on my end...

2) awr :< </3

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

arsenical bronze

isn't that kind of... poisonous?

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

isn't that kind of... poisonous?

From what I can tell, the creation of arsenical bronze is extremely hazardous, but the alloyed metal itself is nearly harmless. Probably because it takes a decent amount of arsenic to give the kidneys any real trouble filtering it from the blood in time, and cool metal doesn't give up its atoms so easily.

Add in the fact that tools have handles and armor (should) have padding, and the risk of using 'mithril' items is next to nothing.

...Just don't approach within 10 blocks of the bloomery while ur melting the ore, or its poison time for you.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

From what I can tell, the creation of arsenical bronze is extremely hazardous, but the alloyed metal itself is nearly harmless. Probably because it takes a decent amount of arsenic to give the kidneys any real trouble filtering it from the blood in time, and cool metal doesn't give up its atoms so easily.

Add in the fact that tools have handles and armor (should) have padding, and the risk of using 'mithril' items is next to nothing.

...Just don't approach within 10 blocks of the bloomery while ur melting the ore, or its poison time for you.

If we DID add in mithril (because I've actually thought about it in the past) it would probably be as it's own ore, and would stand alone as a complete fantasy metal. Probably with dwarves.

[Scooterdanny 285]

Arsenical bronze (the creation anyways), was toxic, but only after years of exposure, as pointed out earlier in this thread, so steve going and crafting a few bits of armor, he should be just fine. The poisoning caused lameness, which could be a reason for why Hephaestus was lame.

Edited 7 Aug 2012 by Scooterdanny

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Arsenical bronze (the creation anyways), was toxic, but only after years of exposure, as pointed out earlier in this thread, so steve going and crafting a few bits of armor, he should be just fine. The poisoning caused lameness, which could be a reason for why Hephaestus was lame.

but... Hephaestus never existed. why he is "lame" is irrelevant, as he does not abide by the normal laws of physics which we do.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

If we DID add in mithril (because I've actually thought about it in the past) it would probably be as it's own ore, and would stand alone as a complete fantasy metal. Probably with dwarves.

So, the Runescape approach then?

[Scooterdanny 285]

Regardless of whether greek gods existed, the real smiths accrued this ailment as well, which do follow the same rules of physics.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Regardless of whether greek gods existed, the real smiths accrued this ailment as well, which do follow the same rules of physics.

true, true.

Mithril is a purported fantastically strong metal, and aresnical bronze was just a rudimentary version of modern bronze.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

true, true.

Mithril is a purported fantastically strong metal, and aresnical bronze was just a rudimentary version of modern bronze.

ehhhhhh.... seems like an improvement over modern bronze from what I can tell.

Hell, seems like an improvement over Iron, from what I can tell

[Jed1314 420]

I'd actually rather see mithril added as a fantasy metal. Here's why:

I love fantasy elements of games.... That was simpler than I expected :L

I was looking at the "metallurgy" mod and I thought that same separation might work quite well for fantastical elements of this game, though I know Bioxx is more intent on keeping it as one file

[rbdyck 8]

true, true.

Mithril is a purported fantastically strong metal, and aresnical bronze was just a rudimentary version of modern bronze.

Why don't you actually read this discussion. Read post #3 on the first page. That describes arsenical bronze. It's the one with pictures.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Why don't you actually read this discussion. Read post #3 on the first page. That describes arsenical bronze. It's the one with pictures.

Perhaps speaking to one of the mod developers in that manner isn't the best way of having your idea added to the mod...

...just sayin'

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

If we DID add in mithril (because I've actually thought about it in the past) it would probably be as it's own ore, and would stand alone as a complete fantasy metal. Probably with dwarves.

Probably with dwarves.

DWARVES

squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!