That Damage Discussion: Round 16

[ECC 508]

Been here a while now and I've seen a lot on this subject. To be honest, I dont give a crap about the 6+ other threads. for the most part, they are old, stomped, or wouldn't work with the newer health system. I am making a new thread to get some light on this slightly more simplistic take on things. some of thease values can be combined for simplicity, however keeping them separate allows future additions such as armor-weapon interaction, enchantments, and other various buffs/debuffs. what I am proposing is no easy matter to make, however I feel that it is simple enough that the means meet the ends. Imagine TFC being the mod that finally gets combat right.

I have mentioned in a few threads now that damage should be based on 4-5 base values. they are as follows:

- Weapon type; Each separate tool(mace, pick, hoe, sword, etc) has its own base damage. this damage is the minimal any weapon can put out ever. no other stat can reduce it below this point. to explain further, no matter what metal you use to make this tool, the tool will ALWAYS deal out this much damage at the very least.

- Weapon weight; Each separate metal(tin, copper, iron, etc) has its own 'weight', which is an artificial calculation to add a modifier to base damage(Weapon Type). the heavier your metal used, the heavier the damage dealt. this may mean that lighter alloys are not advisable for a mace(weapon which relies heavily on weight to attack). This stat when used with a non weapon tool adds to speed

- Weapon Edge; Otherwise called durability, this stat now directly modifies damage. the higher the durability, the higher the damage. This also means that a good smith makes weapons that actually matter. This stat when used with a non weapon tool adds to speed.

- Limb Modifier; (head and torso are considered limbs for this) taking a shot at someones head does a different level of damage as apposed to attacking their legs. While this would be a nice feature and other mods have done it with various results, I imagine it would be a lot of work and should not be the focus of this topic

Small note: For discussion on swinging speed and the like, haste type buffs from vanilla could be used.

A couple of other threads:

Different weapon and armor stats; Inspired by Dwarf Fortress

Weapon/tool 'finishing' (lightly touched on)

Organic Combat Programming (Overly advanced mechanics. good, but...)

Mobs and Damage Overhaul (an old one)

so, thoughts?

(again, I realize there are a number of threads that exist, even some that are VERY similar. this is my take, and leaving it in another thread is death of the idea... source: experience. also, i remember writing up a topic like this before. I don't know if I actually posted it. if I did, 'Oops' applies here.)

[Deathbytac0 46]

I have yet to mess around with weapons, I haven't got to make any. Bioxx multiplied their values though to make damage more precise; scratch limbs and do the rest on paper and you have a bunch less coding just a change of value. Your hand needs to do a lot more damage though, for a guy that mines and chops wood all day while carrying a heavy inventory all day he hits like a child. Ten hits on a zombie to kill it is a lot better than thirty.

[ECC 508]

Respectfully, if you have not messed with weapons then leave the thread. the current system still uses a derivative of VMC and deals a base damage standard that ramps with metals. by breaking this system down and saying the metal its self determines a good portion of damage and putting other stats based on the type, I eliminate the need for a 'buff/debuff' argument. If a system like this is added, its a case of adding in a new weapon type then letting the material used determine the rest. I am creating a Constant stat base throughout the tier system rather then leaving it 'as is'

im probably saying this very unclearly, so lets do it though something else. Example:

Blue steel: Very Heavy, high durability

Red steel: Heavy, Very high durability

thease two metals are very alike. however, blue steel is the heaviest. heavy metals using this system are good for blunt weapons. make a mace from it and it will keep dealing out instant death damage to many foes for a long time. it barely ever degrades and acts as an end game material for mace wielders. Red steel however is lighter, and not as good for maces. but it holds an edge very well. so, making a blade with it means you can cleave though targets with ease instantly killing them for a long time. its an ideal metal for use with blades because its not going to chip, bend or snap as easily as its mace counterpart, blue steel.

add in the potential for maintenance, and you can keep thease weapons at the finest possible and still have valid choices for a while. hell, add in wielding debuffs(VMC has a few that would work for this) and you can make a mace deal high constant damage with slow swings and a blade deal quick moderate damage with quick swings.

[ruhl4 24]

I can see griefers cutting off the new guy's legs and running off, leaving a half-sized person to be eaten by zombies.

[ECC 508]

limb damage has nothing to do with gibs. its a modifer that changes damage by a % based on where the attack was aimed. the only greif that can occur with this system is spawn killing, something that occurs already within vanilla MC. there is no effective way around it without server moderation.

[Sda215 8]

Hmm... this could implement much more variety and creativity in terms of slaying hostiles. Could be a very well made system if balanced out (that is, if there is any balance issues).

-Sda209

[halfmaster1 77]

I suggest that maces do more damage but have a slower swing speed.

You suggestion seems a bit complicated. I would like it more if instead of a sword slowly losing strength relative to is dmg value, it should have a separate value that can be restored by sharpening it.

[bsb23 303]

I suggest you quickly add Jed's combat overhaul's to your list before I have to bring it up myself.

On that note, besides bringing excellent ideas to the table you haven't addressed the single largest problem with Minecraft combat, that problem being the spam click method, without that fixed this is just another attempted change with no real power behind it. Until we fix spamming and make combat an actual strategic engagement, our combat will never be right.

[ECC 508]

For some reason it didnt show up in the search results and I really ddint think of looking any more past that. /lazy

I'm sure all of us vets know about it, so meh.

and I did address it. Handling debuffs/buffs using haste and slowness(?) (the buff/debuffs that slow swing speed)

entirely possible, plausible and more, just a case of not having it interact with other systems.

[bsb23 303]

Not to be rude but that fixes nothing that means some people will be able to spam faster than others while making more weapon depth you have yet to make actual combat more engaging. It is still a spam-click system.

[ECC 508]

using the proper vanilla debuff for it slows attacks down massively(i've tested this though some hackish methods)

with enough work, it can be calibrated so weight/type=speed. I have not touched on armor as I want to have the health-damage set up cleanly first.

no matter what tool your holding, you will receive a debuff for swing speed. this debuff lowers the swing|hit time frame significantly and you can not spam another swing during this time(without resetting your attack) thats in vanilla, just not implemented into tools.

I am trying to make this thread up so that theoreticaly it can work with as much vanilla as possible. using the haste type debuffs, along with basic damage precalc, this is accomplished to make the first steps into a more rewarding PvE and PvP play.

babysteps. this thread isnt about everything at once, its about the small first step

[madflavius 46]

no matter what tool your holding, you will receive a debuff for swing speed.

Huzzah! I think that part alone would be a fantastic idea. As stated above, spam-click battles are horrendous--functionally, it makes Minecraft less of a game and more of a ISP testing service ("hey look, I win because my ping is only 50ms and yours is 150ms"!).

Secondly, regarding limbs, so far as I am aware (which may be a false impression) the entire player/mob model is a single simple hitbox, and therefore it would involve redoing the entire model and hit detection system, which I don't know if it would be possible with Forge/PlayerManager as they now stand.

However, what could be done is implement a simple hit chance mechanic. For a hit that penetrates armor (or is striking an unarmored enemy), there could be a (small) chance of an arm or leg strike. A crippling hit to the arm could add an additional tool swing debuff, and a crippling leg shot could significantly slow movement (already implemented when thirst gets too low). If medicine and medicinal herbs were added, you might need to heal with some sort of herbal poultice before the debuff is removed.

[Sda215 8]

I might try to improve this discussion by creating another suggestion topic. I will research the weapon values, variables, and all sorts of insane topics. When I have the time (I have school until Christmas Break).

P.S. - MISTER DUNKLEOSTEUS, DID YOU MODIFY MY RANK TITLE TO BE MORE DEPRESSING?!?! (You sly devil...!)

[ECC 508]

instead of a new topic, post your findings here and I'll gladly argue the points and edit the OP.

damage debuffs: No, not until damage its self is handled correctly. THEN we can get into bleeding n stuff.

im trying to keep the OP short n simple. the hardest part to build in this is as I can imagine the player hitbox being moved to each limb.(limb including torso and head)

[Treyflix 277]

Your weight system is flawed. You don't want the heaviest weapon you can get, otherwise weapons would be made of lead. I agree with weight affecting damage as you said, but it should also affect swing speed. So you choose a balance between damage and swing speed. Also, if sharpness affect damage, maces will have huge advantage over swords. To balance this, things with a edge can be resharpened, but their durability does not go up. Finally, their should be different types of damage. Crush (dependent on weight, not much affected by armor) slash (does not cause as much damage as armor, but starts bleed DOT effect that doesn't stop until you can bandage yourself, stacks up with multiple cuts, item has to be sharp! armor would stop this, including leather) and finally pierce. the actual damage done by pierce is lessened more by better armors, but the bleed affect (not as bad as a slash) is not. Maces/hammers/rocks would do crush damage. Swords would do slash damage and some crush damage, knife would do slash damage, Spears and arrow pierce. This is covered much better by Jed's post.

[ECC 508]

YOu've never seen what a lead pipe can do, have you? ;P

I fail to see the flaw... even if it breaks the second swing, that first one already did the damage of throwing all of its weight into the target. heavier weapons are stronger, and indeed would swing slower. and all you need to end a fight is a single good blow. blades in this however deal damage compared to durability PLUS have a massive DPS compared to heavier weapons. people who live in the stat world would eventually find themselves at the difficult decision between a series of weapons of varoius durability, DPS' and Single Blow Damage stats that they have to still choose the weapon for the situation. its like terraria... The harp is good for the destroyer, but almost usless against the Twins. where as the Megashark is good for the Twins but useless for the Destroyer(because of the attack physics and damage rates)

in this it might be found that a tin dagger acts to deal massive 'end game damage' but practically has 1 shot.even if you have a lot of the necessary materals, your inv limits will kill you in advanced combat as you have to keep switching weapons as they snap. Combat should always be able to end at the first blow, but war should be a defined process where you choose every thing with deep thought. do you want to be quick and deal out 1000 dmg per second? or do you want to end everything with a single decisive blow of 2000? are you going in 1 on 1? or is this between two waring nations?

[Pakislav 120]

How about giving a mace a stronger pushback effect and have sword deal more damage?

Easy enough to implement and good enough to stay satisfied, me thinks.

[ECC 508]

for you, but for me you must consider everything. Weight, impact, force, speed. Considering the circumstances, not all of this can be directly calculated so by adding in many values pre calc, basing everything on a solid base info would benefit. again, combat in a single blow where those who are quick of wit can kill you just as fast as those who have the better weapon.

as for mace vs sword: maces where known as armor crushers for a reason. They did massive amounts of damage to rigid materials. Simply giving a mace knockback does not reflect this at all. Swords are precision weapons and were often used to slip though the caps of armor rather then a mace just going clean though it. Yes, a sword should in game sense deal more damage, but honestly knockback should be entirely nerfed in MC all together. It makes PVE far too easy(throw a zombie off a cliff instead of actually dealing with it.) as well as pvp where people can kock one another away with a fist and dart into the night. yes, a blow should stagger you, even knock you down, but VMC methods allow you to compound it and use it to LITERALLY throw someone 15 meters(50ft~)

lets for the time being not try to improve the system I have presented and instead look at it as 'would I play this system?'

[Pakislav 120]

I don't think I would. It could turn out fine if it was implemented, but right now I think it's over-complicated for no particular reason.

I mean, this is a game where your hands are rectangular and have no joints, and you seem to want to make this combat better then Mount & Blade.

Besides, we are yet too see how new mobs would behave in combat. And althought you are right about Zombies.. they are zombies after all, and you can't keep a spider away by hitting it right now.

So I guess this discussion is for the future.

[ECC 508]

VMC is under complicated and entirely useless for real pvp. this thread is about turning war into a proper metaskill where even before combat begins you are thinking ahead . in my old war/pvp server the winner was decided by who had the best armor... which was almost always us.

you CAN keep a spider away by hitting it. I do it all the time. the only reason I have issues with them is because they can see though the damned walls.

[Pakislav 120]

I agree that Vanilla is far from perfect, but your suggestions don't give me an impression of fixing that.

So far we have here only different modifiers to weapons, which don't add much. It's still who has better weapon wins.

What the combat needs are mechanics that apply to all weapons, such as timing and delays, more functional blocking, counter attacks, maybe power attacks, knockback that stuns the target rather then pushing it. Maybe even sneaking and sneak attacks?

Any modifiers on top of actual mechanics are secondary and affect only balance.

[killster550 401]

paki, what you described was Skyrim, an RPG, this remains minecraft, combat is done only to get rid of an assailant, you're not supposed to actively fight non stop. also, in a PvP situation, what you need is a different form of combat than just melee and medium range archery

[ECC 508]

'It's still who has better weapon wins.'

in unarmored(or in some cases light armor) combat, its whoever lands the first major strike. tiers would not matter AT ALL in unarmored combat, and that is something that appeals. however, in armored combat its all about who has a better weapon as the better weapon is a better 'can opener' even irl(partially true. better weapons are usually ones that are well maintained. some can do major damage to armors or even slip though the cracks easier then shoddy weapons. Not to mention better weapons LAST)

before people mention blocking, as if this topic lives long enough to get into THAT mechanic, I want to see limb modifiers added in so that way we have a chance at adding in weapon modifers(how blocking should work). teaser explanation: blocking in the direction of the attack+ area of shield(weapons count as a small shield)=success. Failure=blocking wildly

[bsb23 303]

paki, what you described was Skyrim, an RPG, this remains minecraft, combat is done only to get rid of an assailant, you're not supposed to actively fight non stop. also, in a PvP situation, what you need is a different form of combat than just melee and medium range archery

Poor argument, what Paki described may be similar to Skyrim's combat system but that doesn't mean it's automatically a RPG, in fact far from it. I see nothing RPG about it, perhaps you would like to show me? We don't need additional ranges although they are nice we need to prevent spam attacking and require that battles be won through strategy, so that a person with a tin sword could beat someone with a red steel sword even if this is unlikely to happen, there has to be a possibility of the tin sword winning through actual strategy.

[ECC 508]

the way I propose means that a tin sword can win EVERY time against red because the user behind it can swing a little faster and only needs to get in one hit. What I am pulling here is a TOTAL mindfuck from what people understand in all other mods. No more should having the best metal matter, stead we stand there in pathetic tin and can survive because unlike you, we learned exactly how the system works. we learned tht aiming at your neck will kill you irregardless of everything you used.

people who develop the fighter metaskill can survive where others perish.

Down with the tiers as we know them.