blueprints are way too op

[Menoch 335]

Acting like one's personal preference is some kind of perfect level of difficulty can come across as a bit rude. While I'm bound to agree that blueprints should be hard to do or not be there at all (preferably instead having other methods of speeding up chiseling), it's better not to act like we're some kind of Messengers of The One Truth.

There are two "Messengers of The One Truth" on the forums. Bioxx and Dunk.

The rest of the discussions and suggestions are just that. Discussions and Suggestions.

If you read my posts, I try to remember to state that these are my opinions. Opinions are facts to the speaker, nothing more. So i argue my case with what i believe are points that should be made. I am not a politician, so i dont need to pussy foot around peoples' feelings for votes. I failed at etiuqette and if I come across as rude sometimes, thats because I am an old cranky fart who sometimes forgets to take his Geritol.

But I also dont feel I need to sugar coat my cases on forums where i consider the people friends. Why suggest something you believe in if you arent willing to defend it?

I never intend to be rude or hurt anyones feelings...

Now get the hell out of my way! I'm late for my prune juice injection!

PS: Dockwithme... why are you such a meanie!

[dockwithme 76]

PS: Dockwithme... why are you such a meanie!

IDK. Everyone feel however the hell you want to feel, say whatever you want to say. Bleh.

[halfmaster1 77]

That could be said for shovels and all food but zombie flesh too, that they belong in creative mode and we should dig with our hands because it's harder and eat the putrid flesh because it's more of a challenge and that food that doesn't poison you is just for lazy people and that we should only have one heart HP because surviving an arrow is for creative mode.

It's always a weighting of difficulty vs. accessability. The feeling of satisfaction when succeeding at something difficult can be lessened if the task gets simplified, but if it's too difficult one might end up tireing and dropping the whole thing and never getting to the fun part. Like if we had to dig all dirt by hand.

And different people prefer different amounts of tedium/difficulty. People playing TFC sure prefer more than those playing vanilla, but it varies among us too.

Acting like one's personal preference is some kind of perfect level of difficulty can come across as a bit rude. While I'm bound to agree that blueprints should be hard to do or not be there at all (preferably instead having other methods of speeding up chiseling), it's better not to act like we're some kind of Messengers of The One Truth.

So...

Getting rid of a ridiculously easy way to accomplish things, making the accomplishments more fulfilling

is the same as

getting rid of everything that you can achieve.

However, shovels do[i/] need to be slowed down a bit. Except on charcoal.

[stringburka 72]

Those are two way different things. Instantly being able to create a block after only having to create it once, or after copying it to a blueprint from someone else is NOT believable. It is along the terms of being able to spawn yourself blocks in Creative Mode.

You don't create a block, you just alter it. Just like you do when creating a crafting table, or stone bricks, or what have you.

Saying we should have one heart, or to dig dirt with your hands, or to have to eat rotten flesh bc '[normal food] is just for lazy people' is not a normal thing to do. They are constraints you can place on yourself, yes, but have no believability since you CAN make shovels and you CAN eat other foods... and that is accepted by everyone because it MAKES SENSE. Creating a chiselled stone autoMAGICALLY with one click is not.

But then it's not about how easy something is to do but what is believable and not and what is possible in the real world. And a lot of things differ from that. Other things that could be argued, if you want to go down that path, is that you should be able to carry like one log block at a time (it is a square meter of wood!) and nearly nothing else, that you shouldn't be able to store rocks, planks etc in chests, that you shouldn't be able to survive on just a few times of food, et cetera et cetera. Not to speak of digging times - taking out a cubic meter of dirt takes at least half an hour IRL, with a high-quality modern shovel.

There's a lot of suspension of disbelief in games, and there's a lot of stuff that is impossible in real life that we have in the games because it makes it more fun, like being able to level a dirt hill with a shovel in like 2 minutes and carrying around 30 cubic meters of dirt in your invisible backpack.

So saying:

"If you believe chiselling blocks is tedious without being able to magically create them, then DON'T do it. You don't HAVE to. It is not essential to survival."

Could as well be changed for:

"If you believe digging earth is tedious without being able to do it in a few seconds, then DON'T do it. You don't HAVE to. It is not essential to survival."

I'm not saying you're arguing for longer dirt digging methods, just that the very line of reasoning that something's ease of doing compared to real life is an argument for what to allow/what not to allow. Indirectly it can be, and I can see plenty of reasons for wanting to restrict/remove blueprints, but this is really flawed logic. People are saying it like it's some black and white thing where some things are completely logical to have in and others, to quote, "is a fish in the desert in survival mode".

I'm saying it's all just different points on a scale to what amount of tedium/difficulty we want, and none is inherently more right than the other. It's these absolute statements, like the following, that I think are unnecessary and directly negative for a healthy debate:

"Whether 1/1000th of a block or not, a creative tool, used to make crafting quicker because "people dont want to spend the time on tedium", is a fish in the desert in survival mode, regardless of whether it makes surviving easier or not."

[Biodigious 211]

You don't create a block, you just alter it. Just like you do when creating a crafting table, or stone bricks, or what have you.

But then it's not about how easy something is to do but what is believable and not and what is possible in the real world. And a lot of things differ from that. Other things that could be argued, if you want to go down that path, is that you should be able to carry like one log block at a time (it is a square meter of wood!) and nearly nothing else, that you shouldn't be able to store rocks, planks etc in chests, that you shouldn't be able to survive on just a few times of food, et cetera et cetera. Not to speak of digging times - taking out a cubic meter of dirt takes at least half an hour IRL, with a high-quality modern shovel.

There's a lot of suspension of disbelief in games, and there's a lot of stuff that is impossible in real life that we have in the games because it makes it more fun, like being able to level a dirt hill with a shovel in like 2 minutes and carrying around 30 cubic meters of dirt in your invisible backpack.

So saying:

"If you believe chiselling blocks is tedious without being able to magically create them, then DON'T do it. You don't HAVE to. It is not essential to survival."

Could as well be changed for:

"If you believe digging earth is tedious without being able to do it in a few seconds, then DON'T do it. You don't HAVE to. It is not essential to survival."

I'm not saying you're arguing for longer dirt digging methods, just that the very line of reasoning that something's ease of doing compared to real life is an argument for what to allow/what not to allow. Indirectly it can be, and I can see plenty of reasons for wanting to restrict/remove blueprints, but this is really flawed logic. People are saying it like it's some black and white thing where some things are completely logical to have in and others, to quote, "is a fish in the desert in survival mode".

I'm saying it's all just different points on a scale to what amount of tedium/difficulty we want, and none is inherently more right than the other. It's these absolute statements, like the following, that I think are unnecessary and directly negative for a healthy debate:

"Whether 1/1000th of a block or not, a creative tool, used to make crafting quicker because "people dont want to spend the time on tedium", is a fish in the desert in survival mode, regardless of whether it makes surviving easier or not."

Yes to all of this. Didn't you guys know? The main goal of this mod is to become a real life simulator, not just make survival how it should have been.

[killster550 401]

your sarcasm is completely unhelpful bio, instead, you couldv just addressed whatever points in his topic were wrong, bad or you disagree with.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

your sarcasm is completely unhelpful bio, instead, you couldv just addressed whatever points in his topic were wrong, bad or you disagree with.

you'd think that he would have realized this by now, but I dunno

[Kimbblesrath 503]

you'd think that he would have realized this by now, but I dunno

Has he always been like this?

[Biodigious 211]

Has he always been like this?

Through careful observation, I've come to the conclusion that he only does it when the person needs it.

[halfmaster1 77]

Through careful observation, I've come to the conclusion that he only does it when the person needs it.

He is only vague when the other person needs him to be specific?

I guess that is a yes, the Kimbble.

[Walmart Germaphobe 15]

It still gets rid of specialization. You only have to get through the block once without a mis-click. After that, you can always be perfect.

good point.

[Treyflix 277]

There is a difference between tedium and challenge.

[Menoch 335]

There is a difference between tedium and challenge.

As there is between working hard for what you have and expecting a hand-out.

[Sda215 8]

I haven't a clue on whether this has been already discussed or not, but I'll try regardless. Instead of the blueprint actually providing the chiseled block for the player, the blueprint acts as a guide rather than instantaneously ginving a chisel block. With the blueprint in your hand, the player right-clicks on the block they choose to chisel, and a ghost of the chiseled block the blueprint was assigned to appears in the block, highlighted.

Questions, concerns, thoughts, and the like?

EDIT: This suggestion is void, for this idea has already been suggested

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

*deleted post*

hehehe you do realize that Menoch is a dev right?

yes life in modern society is fairly easy, but we're talking life on your own, no civilizations at all where you actually do have to work for everything you get

[Squirrelzz 3]

hehehe you do realize that Menoch is a dev right?

yes life in modern society is fairly easy, but we're talking life on your own, no civilizations at all where you actually do have to work for everything you get

Oh, And because he's a dev I should treat him like a god right? Mere mortal like all of us. Don't idolize people, It just makes you creepy. That being said.

And even without civilizations, you actually have LESS to do then if you where in a civilization! that's silly to say such thing. Let me put it simple.

No Civilization:

Get food

Get shelter

Sleep

Pass time

Repeat

Civilization:

Wake up,

Go to work at some lame boring job, doing things you'd rather not be doing.

Deal with idiots.

Check your phone to find your wife bitching at you for not picking up your clothing

Check your phone again, read emails from people who are "higher up" then you, throw you around.

Drive home, following rules from other humans just like you, that are set in place to "control you" from doing things. such as speeding.

Get home, clean your house, Because Society says you should stay clean and organized.

Go to the store to get dinner. Pay 4xs the price it would actually cost to get it yourself.

Go home, make dinner. on a big fancy device that cooks your food about as good as a campfire.

Sit down in a couch, just to fall asleep and wake up the next day to repeat.

Sorry, but modern society is far from easy. But who am I to say. I'm sure you've never actually grew up in a rural town where things like Walmart open at sunrise, and close by sunset. and there is no such thing as 24/7.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

Oh, And because he's a dev I should treat him like a god right? Mere mortal like all of us. Don't idolize people, It just makes you creepy. That being said.

And even without civilizations, you actually have LESS to do then if you where in a civilization! that's silly to say such thing. Let me put it simple.

No Civilization:

Get food

Get shelter

Sleep

Pass time

Repeat

mmhmm, alright then now how about you go out into the forest with absolutely nothing on you, and try and do all those things. trust me, there is nothing simple or easy about surviving, oh and that "pass time" step? yeah those first two things are pretty much going to take all day.

and no, i'm not idolizing people, i'm just saying that since they are the developers, they should at least get a little respect

[bsb23 303]

Can't decide who will get banned first squirrelzzz for his prostitute post and general defiance or Bio and his general dusche-ness.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

Can't decide who will get banned first squirrelzzz for his prostitute post and general defiance or Bio and his general dusche-ness.

it's funny that you say this because remember Eternal? he was almost exactly the same way, except mor just towards idiots hence he is now the "anti-idiot comittee chairman"

i'm all for being mean to those who deserve it, but not all the time

and bio? yeah i know that font bugs me too, OCD does not want

[stringburka 72]

mmhmm, alright then now how about you go out into the forest with absolutely nothing on you, and try and do all those things. trust me, there is nothing simple or easy about surviving, oh and that "pass time" step? yeah those first two things are pretty much going to take all day.

and no, i'm not idolizing people, i'm just saying that since they are the developers, they should at least get a little respect

Actually, my (limited as it may be) experience with wilderness survival is that it requires quite a fair deal of "passing the time". At least wilderness survival with modern knowledge. Though that's just for a nordic climate - it may be different in other parts of the world, but unless it's winter, getting shelter is quite simple and doesn't really take that long (granted, we have big forests). Getting food is to a large degree determined by luck, but many methods (such as hunting, trapping and fishing) DOES require a lot of "passing the time". In addition, you need to take everything quite slow so you don't tire yourself, because needlessly tireing yourself is a bad thing with capital B. In my experience, boredom is a major psychological strain under such circumstances - but I've got a very high need of constant stimuli, so YMMV. A curse of the modern society. It would likely be different if you lived outside for a long time though, I've never done this sort of thing for more than a week (and then it was during late summer, the easiest time to do it).

Though I'm in no way saying that it's easier than indoors comfortable living, that'd be quite insane. The life expectancy of a stone age human was low enough that I feel comfortable saying I'm goddamn lucky to be living today.

I would say certain parts of psychological stress would be lower in a more "primitive" situations though. Today's society forces a kind of stress that we haven't had time to evolve resistance to - the constant, longterm stress and the insane focus on living up to different social standards. Humans, like most animals, are more evolved for short-term stress. On the other hand, the frequency of us becoming food nowadays are a fair deal lower, and in my part of the world, the frequency of us starving to death too.

[spAnser 34]

Can't decide who will get banned first squirrelzzz for his prostitute post and general defiance or Bio and his general dusche-ness.

Biodigious is much closer than Squirrelzz

But lets try to stay on topic guys or I will have to start deleting even more posts in this thread.

[newcomer200 1]

It seems like the discussion keeps coming back to the question of specialization and difficulty versus tedium and repetitive. As the chisel currently stands, doing much detailing work on large structures is long and repetitive, with misclicks being the bane of one's existence. Blueprints, however, make the process too easy by allowing work that should be detailed work take much longer. Really what we need is some kind of middleground between these two ideas.

One option would be to only allow blueprints to work with a lower level of resolution (so instead of the 8x8x8 resolution of detailed chiseling, blueprints could only handle 4x4x4 with each blueprint cube equaling a 2x2x2 chisel cube). Through this, it would allow the use of blueprints to make the general shape of the block, but would require one to go back and add the final details.

Another option is to have blueprints take away most of the blocks that are supposed to be chiseled away, but randomly leave some pieces still attached. This would similarly force the player to go back and fix the block, making the blueprint a useful tool, but not a pure replicator.

With both of these ideas, we would probably still want to modify how blueprints are made and/or are used. At the very least, it should take some time to use blueprints on a block rather than being an instant process.

[Squirrelzz 3]

Actually, my (limited as it may be) experience with wilderness survival is that it requires quite a fair deal of "passing the time". At least wilderness survival with modern knowledge. Though that's just for a nordic climate - it may be different in other parts of the world, but unless it's winter, getting shelter is quite simple and doesn't really take that long (granted, we have big forests). Getting food is to a large degree determined by luck, but many methods (such as hunting, trapping and fishing) DOES require a lot of "passing the time". In addition, you need to take everything quite slow so you don't tire yourself, because needlessly tireing yourself is a bad thing with capital B. In my experience, boredom is a major psychological strain under such circumstances - but I've got a very high need of constant stimuli, so YMMV. A curse of the modern society. It would likely be different if you lived outside for a long time though, I've never done this sort of thing for more than a week (and then it was during late summer, the easiest time to do it).

*snip*

I'm glad you put more time into explaining that then I did. Hopefully he gets it now.. CLEARLY he's trying to say I have no idea what I'm talking about, when actually I do.

Oh and because we're pretty much on the same page now.

Swamp survival is very easy if you know what you're doing.

Turtles/Rabbit/Deer/Boar/tons of kinds of fish [depends if its salt water swamps or fresh] are all wonderful food sources. Plus [at least Florida swamps] There are palm trees EVERYWHERE. Some good sturdy logs/fallen tree. some long sticks, some palm fronds. And the "swamp mud" out in the most sunny area you can get [open field] makes a wonderful shelter for the Florida heat and humility. Proven by myself. To build?? about 6 hours, of work. Makes you very tired, especially carrying the mud. BUT if you set up traps for trapping fish/crawfish/rabbit/small game basically. BEFORE you started building your shelter, then all is good. cause by time you're "Tired" you can go back, with a priest and get something to eat.

A priest: is a heavy stick/wand/rock type object, something heavy enough so it takes one good blow to the head to finish an animal.

this shelter if done correctly. [refer to picture] will last you with a little maintenance 2 years easily! even with Florida rain/storms!!

Now back on topic, I like the current blueprints. keep them. People just like to whine about a GAME being easy in some aspect. its suppose to be FUN not impossible.

[Squirrelzz 3]

Can't decide who will get banned first squirrelzzz for his prostitute post and general defiance or Bio and his general dusche-ness.

Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't know it was up to you to decide. Also didn't know general defiance was against the rules? actually, I didn't know I fell into the "general defiance" category. hmm, Sorry. I'm not a boot licker like you.

[Sda215 8]

Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't know it was up to you to decide. Also didn't know general defiance was against the rules? actually, I didn't know I fell into the "general defiance" category. hmm, Sorry. I'm not a boot licker like you.

It is advised that users don't double-post; it's messier and has the potential to melt users (use the multi-quote key by clicking on multi-quote on multiple posts).

Bsb cannot decide if a moderator (probably Mister Dunkleosteus or Mister SpAnser) would ban you or Biodigious for behavior issues.

But, as Mister SpAnser stated, let's head back onto topic so he won't be forced to delete more posts.

Blueprints (do I have to repeat my ideas so it can get noticed [and not ignored due to a user getting everyone's attention]?) should act more of a guide than instant chisel blocks. When right-clicking with a blueprint containing the chisel design, a ghost of that design will be highlighted on the block designated for chiseling.

Void for my idea is already suggested.