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Khalkists

Stoning your blade

29 posts in this topic

This is a rather simplistic approach to enhance on the lifetime of bladed weapons. They would require more maintenance, but last longer.

If you would like a more detailed and more encompassing idea, click here ->http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/4512-casted-tools-and-sharpening/

 

 

A sword or knife would lose its edge more and more after every progressive swing. 

 

The natural durability, represented on a bar, would be much lower, but would no longer break at 0, and will be referred to as "sharpness" from now on.

All freshly cast weapons start with "0" sharpness.

As the weapon's sharpness gets lower, the weapon's damage drops. At 0, its damage rests at a very low level, roughly +25.

This can be solved by crafting it with any rock, though harder ones would perform better.

Each crafting will utilize the rock, and restore some durability. The closer it is to full, the more durability each rock will restore. At the same time, each and every time you restore some durability with the stone, it will lower a "hidden" durability bar by an random amount. 

This hidden durability bar, when it reaches 0, will cause the weapon to break in the classic minecraft fashion. The only hint that the hidden bar provides is an adjective about the current condition of the blade. Higher tier blades have a longer lifespan, and can survive longer without sharpening before becoming ineffective.

 

To further streamline the process, the rock could be reusable. Alternatively, we could craft a proper whetstone, which doesn't break on use.

 

 

 

More or less, this means that constant, little maintenance towards your swords and knives will keep them lasting much longer.

On the other hand, since each stone is less effective at lower "sharpness" levels, Letting your weapon reach "0" can be a very bad move. It would require many more sharpenings, lowering the overall condition of the weapon.

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Rather than a hidden durability tools could have a random chance to break. This would be extremely low ((Probably less than 1%)). If the tool is of higher quality materials and more skillfully crafted ((Using the already in place smithing mechanics)) the percentage would be even lower. Each time the tool is sharpened the break percentage would increase by a random small amount. If the tool ever reached a point where it had a fair chance of breaking the name could be changed to "Battered X" or "Flimsy X" to let the player know that the tool is reaching the end of its life. The rest would stay as you have written it. I just feel that a random break chance would be better than a set durability.

 

That aside though, no matter how the devs do, it sharpening should be added in some form or another.

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Rather than a hidden durability tools could have a random chance to break. This would be extremely low ((Probably less than 1%)). If the tool is of higher quality materials and more skillfully crafted ((Using the already in place smithing mechanics)) the percentage would be even lower. Each time the tool is sharpened the break percentage would increase by a random small amount. If the tool ever reached a point where it had a fair chance of breaking the name could be changed to "Battered X" or "Flimsy X" to let the player know that the tool is reaching the end of its life. The rest would stay as you have written it. I just feel that a random break chance would be better than a set durability.

 

That aside though, no matter how the devs do, it sharpening should be added in some form or another.

My problem with the "random chance to break" is that a computer calculated RNG can be wholely unreliable. Ever played a game with critical hits, and your effective rate was <1%? While playing said game, you manage to pull off successive critical hits? That is the problem with an RNG system. Nobody would want their tool to break, and them immediately have their fresh one snap as well, especially if they are high tier metals that took a lot of investment to get.

 

Aside from that, I'm somewhat against a durability bar. We don't know without a fair amount of practice when our tools are going to break, and even with a master's skill, their estimates tend to cover a broad span of time. Tools also have a very long lifespan with proper maintenance. A blacksmith would often give his apprentice, upon completion of his apprenticeship, his old set of tools; and said tools could last the new journeyman many years to come.

 

Of course, we aren't constructing our tools in the same manner... ours tend to be hunks of metal on a stick, though the stick would probably be the first to give out. Many well made instruments have a metal cored shaft, and are wrapped/coated/sheathed in another, easier to grip material.

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My problem with the "random chance to break" is that a computer calculated RNG can be wholely unreliable. Ever played a game with critical hits, and your effective rate was <1%? While playing said game, you manage to pull off successive critical hits? That is the problem with an RNG system. Nobody would want their tool to break, and them immediately have their fresh one snap as well, especially if they are high tier metals that took a lot of investment to get.

 

Aside from that, I'm somewhat against a durability bar. We don't know without a fair amount of practice when our tools are going to break, and even with a master's skill, their estimates tend to cover a broad span of time. Tools also have a very long lifespan with proper maintenance. A blacksmith would often give his apprentice, upon completion of his apprenticeship, his old set of tools; and said tools could last the new journeyman many years to come.

 

Of course, we aren't constructing our tools in the same manner... ours tend to be hunks of metal on a stick, though the stick would probably be the first to give out. Many well made instruments have a metal cored shaft, and are wrapped/coated/sheathed in another, easier to grip material.

 

Tools breaking has never really made an sence to me. I understand that something has to affect them, otherwise they would be OP, but in my life, i have never had a toolhead break. It's always the handles (if they are wood) that break, and most of the time, they break where they join the head. Sure, when ive  been working, bit's of metal would chip off, but it's not enough for my whole tools to break. If eventually, my tools did start to crumble because it's got so many chips, i could always re smith the whole tool head. That would be the sort of system i would like to see in MC in general. I think it would have to have some sort of durability bar still, but it would be hidden. ?????

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I think it would have to have some sort of durability bar still, but it would be hidden.

 

Or not so hidden, simply make the tool break into a "Broken Tool Head" item rather then disappearing entirely. This could be smelting back into, let's say, 90-95% of an ingot, or if you want to be minecraftian about it, 7/8 of an ingot. (Which is 87.5% of an ingot, by the way)

 

This, combined with some form of tool sharpening would go a long way in making tools a lot cooler for many people.

 

Although, if this IS implemented, then it should probably come with lowered metal gain per ore, due to the greatly increased amount of durability per ingot you'd get, and/or some other use for metal. (Decorative metal sheeting maybe? :P)

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Tools breaking has never really made an sence to me. I understand that something has to affect them, otherwise they would be OP, but in my life, i have never had a toolhead break. It's always the handles (if they are wood) that break, and most of the time, they break where they join the head. Sure, when ive  been working, bit's of metal would chip off, but it's not enough for my whole tools to break. If eventually, my tools did start to crumble because it's got so many chips, i could always re smith the whole tool head. That would be the sort of system i would like to see in MC in general. I think it would have to have some sort of durability bar still, but it would be hidden. ?????

You have to push a tool through some pretty rough conditions to break it usually. I finally broke a rock bar; which is little more than an 6ft iron rod with a blade on one end, and a pointed tip on the other. Last summer got so hot and dry, the soil baked tight enough to bend it... and in the process of straightening it, we broke it.

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You have to push a tool through some pretty rough conditions to break it usually. I finally broke a rock bar; which is little more than an 6ft iron rod with a blade on one end, and a pointed tip on the other. Last summer got so hot and dry, the soil baked tight enough to bend it... and in the process of straightening it, we broke it.

That was my whole point of my post. Sure thin peices of metal that are long (shovel, spade) can bend, but they can also be bent back. On the other hand, something like a pic, which is very thick is not going to bend as easily. Sure it will, but not if a human is wielding it, as i don't think they wouldn't have the strength to bend a piece of 100mm steel.

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That was my whole point of my post. Sure thin peices of metal that are long (shovel, spade) can bend, but they can also be bent back. On the other hand, something like a pic, which is very thick is not going to bend as easily. Sure it will, but not if a human is wielding it, as i don't think they wouldn't have the strength to bend a piece of 100mm steel.

 

Its more of a balancing factor than anything. Thats why I suggested this strictly for swords and knives. Other tools need to break, otherwise there would be little reason to gather more than the bare minimum in materials.

Another thing that we don't do in TFC is melting down the remains of the metal after it becomes unusable. Of course, both the ease in which they break and the inability to melt it down could be explained by

1- Primitive smelting methods might be leaving the metal brittle.

2- It is easier not to do it, from a play and design standpoint

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In my opinion the breaking of tools could result in the head of a tool to break into metal chunks and smelting it would give some ore back. As the stones can't be smelted then it would only cover metal tools.

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Yes true, and thats why some metal loss would need to happen when a tool head broke. For believability purposes "my axe head broke into pieces, so i only picked up the large pieces"

 

@Ranadiel Yes, but maybe if i broke my stone shovel, when it broke it might form a few sharp pieces, which i would then be able to trun into knifes..?

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Yes true, and thats why some metal loss would need to happen when a tool head broke. For believability purposes "my axe head broke into pieces, so i only picked up the large pieces"

 

@Ranadiel Yes, but maybe if i broke my stone shovel, when it broke it might form a few sharp pieces, which i would then be able to trun into knifes..?

 

This could be done with 4 ore pieces smelted equally as a full ingot, whether you receive 2-3 from a tool.

 

Another aspect of creating tools is a notion proposed in this (or even others) topic - Pouring different amounts of material for tools leading to different amount of ore pieces drop after breaking a tool.

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This could be done with 4 ore pieces smelted equally as a full ingot, whether you receive 2-3 from a tool.

 

Another aspect of creating tools is a notion proposed in this (or even others) topic - Pouring different amounts of material for tools leading to different amount of ore pieces drop after breaking a tool.

 

Im not really sure what you mean by that? :P

 

are you saying that the more expensive an item is worth the more you get back, or the more materials you pour into a tool the more you get back?

 

 

Also i was thing that when your tool head broke, you would be able to pick up the pieces which would be "piece of xxx head". Not all pieces would be the same size of metal, so it wouldn't be a factor of "just re smelt 5 broke head pieces andyou have your self a new ingot"

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Im not really sure what you mean by that? :P

 

are you saying that the more expensive an item is worth the more you get back, or the more materials you pour into a tool the more you get back?

 

 

Also i was thing that when your tool head broke, you would be able to pick up the pieces which would be "piece of xxx head". Not all pieces would be the same size of metal, so it wouldn't be a factor of "just re smelt 5 broke head pieces andyou have your self a new ingot"

 

What i meant was that one would need different amounts of copper for different tools. Simplest way is to assign a 4 Metal Points (0.04 of a full ingot) to a molding square that you "free" (we have 5x5 = 25 squares, 100 / 25 = 4). This way:

- A knife consisting of 9 such freed squares would take up 36 MP

- An axe 15 having squares would use up 60 MP

- A hammer consisting of 11 squares would use 44 MP

- A saw having 14 squares would use up 56 MP

- etc.

 

These values of course could be changed, as one full ingot (100 metal points) could give us 2 hammers, which compared to tools that are created only on anvil is a big difference. Breaking a tool ofcourse would bring out a fraction of such material, being able to smelt it again (using for example Ore chunk = 10 MP, knife would drop 2, axe 3, hammer 2, saw 3, etc.).

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Currently in TFC, all items have the same base input. All tools require 1 ingot, or 1 stone, so I would say, for a recycling process, all tools give a random quantity of "scrap metal" which can be processed afterwards into a full working ingot.

 

The simplest way to do this would to make the "chunks" renamed small ores. They would looks identical, which might be a bit distracting, but they wouldn't stack with the base small chunks, and would function in an identical manner. It would be a low-impact way to add this.

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For a game to be truly fun, you need some randomness. However, if it is TOO random like if your tool spontaneously breaks when you sharpen it, the random risk is now far worse than the minor benefit, even if it doesn't happen very often.

 

 

As for tools that are broken when their durability is used up, how about you just get back a generic "broken tool head" for each type of tool metal that gives back 1/4 of the metal? As the game seems to be to me right now, ore isn't really a scarce resource once you've located & mined it out, so having some sort of tool recycling system doesn't seem to be a game-breaking idea. Of course, I only just started playing the game again after going on hiatus for over 2 years, so I may be talking out of my rear.

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I like the idea of separate durability and sharpness scales for blades, knives, sword, saws, and for pickaxes too. I have personaly used pickaxes, and they are better when sharp, and will dull/dent the tip, reducing efficiency. For the durability, I would suggest a compromise; after a set amount of damage that is bigger for better quality tools, then the chance factor can start to apply. That way there is no set breaking point, but also you aren't going to go breaking your new steel tools on the first sharpening.

 

For stone tools, I would use a different system, as stone has a tendancy to shatter, rather than just dull, and is very, very difficult to sharpen well without breaking.

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I don't believe stone tools would need a sharpening system; they are very cheap to make in the first place. What's the use of taking time to repair something that literally cost you a stick and a couple of stones? I do agree that there should be a repair/sharpening system for metal tools, but only for metal tools.

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Actually stone tools have a tendency to flake, so if used properly they will always sharpen themselves. As for a stone tool be cheap, yeah, maybe for us players, but for cave people they were very expensive, Not all rocks are proper for making tools, and stone knapping was a hard to learn skill demanding many hours with the possibility of breaking the tool on the last hit.

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I like the idea of separate durability and sharpness scales for blades, knives, sword, saws, and for pickaxes too. I have personaly used pickaxes, and they are better when sharp, and will dull/dent the tip, reducing efficiency. For the durability, I would suggest a compromise; after a set amount of damage that is bigger for better quality tools, then the chance factor can start to apply. That way there is no set breaking point, but also you aren't going to go breaking your new steel tools on the first sharpening.

 

For stone tools, I would use a different system, as stone has a tendancy to shatter, rather than just dull, and is very, very difficult to sharpen well without breaking.

You took the words out of my mouth. 

 

 

If anybody knows about tinkers construct, and how tools break, I would like to see a similar effect happen in TFC, where instead of a single catastrophic failiure in the tools to have it completely and utterly destroyed, it could be repaired, as if the was only a crack or chip. Cast tools could be melted and cast again, and wrought tools could be fixed normally, by smithing them.

 

The sharpening system would be a nice addition to TFC,

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As much as I like anything that adds realism to the mod, I cannot understand how in the hack would sharpening a tool have a risk of breaking it? I think sharpening a tool should add speed in the case of picks and shovels, ( yes a shovel can be sharpen and made easy to work with dirt ) and add damage value in the case of a sword. Nothing to do with the durability or chance of breaking.

I think the best way to have a sharpening mechanic in the game is to require a certain level of sharpening on a tool to be used. So once you make a sword it would be so dull that it just does not make much damage against the mobs and it would loose the sharpness with use.

Most tools require some sharpening in real life, like for example the chisel,  knifes, sword, scythe, pickaxe, shovels and some others.

Is this something I want to see in the game? Not sure. I think if it actually adds speed or damage then it would be worth. This is one of my complains as even after all the trouble to get a blue steel pickaxe I do not have as much speed as an enchanted pickaxe. For the amount of work involved in obtaining blue still the reward should be bigger, as in getting building blocks faster.

Reusing broken tools is something that the Dev's have said several times it will not be add to the mod. Once you have all the mineral is not worth .

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As much as I like anything that adds realism to the mod, I cannot understand how in the hack would sharpening a tool have a risk of breaking it? I think sharpening a tool should add speed in the case of picks and shovels, ( yes a shovel can be sharpen and made easy to work with dirt ) and add damage value in the case of a sword. Nothing to do with the durability or chance of breaking.

I think the best way to have a sharpening mechanic in the game is to require a certain level of sharpening on a tool to be used. So once you make a sword it would be so dull that it just does not make much damage against the mobs and it would loose the sharpness with use.

Most tools require some sharpening in real life, like for example the chisel,  knifes, sword, scythe, pickaxe, shovels and some others.

Is this something I want to see in the game? Not sure. I think if it actually adds speed or damage then it would be worth. This is one of my complains as even after all the trouble to get a blue steel pickaxe I do not have as much speed as an enchanted pickaxe. For the amount of work involved in obtaining blue still the reward should be bigger, as in getting building blocks faster.

Reusing broken tools is something that the Dev's have said several times it will not be add to the mod. Once you have all the mineral is not worth .

 

 

 

I think the chance to break would be from normal usage, and not happen from sharpening, it would make sure you don't have a tool that lasts forever, and only has to be sharpened.

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I think the chance to break would be from normal usage, and not happen from sharpening, it would make sure you don't have a tool that lasts forever, and only has to be sharpened.

This^

 

Sharpening your weapon just reduces its max "true" durability. Sharpening really involves removing metal to refine the edge anyways...

 

 

Sharpening (in this suggestion) only affected their damage. But I could see it being necessary for most tools, with their efficiency/mining level degrading as they get dull. (a dulled pick might not be able to mine ores for example)

Edited by Khalkists
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I find it quite unrealistic to be able to pour molten metal into a mould with rather flat looking edges, and easily dismember mobs with them, Therefore I think that anvil worked tools should be sharper

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