Progressively challenging enemies

[valkupo 17]

My idea is simple. Enemies that get tougher (or perhaps different enemies entirely) dependent on what you dig into and the further down you dig.

As the game stands (vanilla and TFC) there is no real reason to feel any additional terror about going to the deepest depths of the world. I've always thought that to be lacking a feeling of fulfillment. Now true, there are suggestions that take jabs at this in their own ways.

Making torches burn out has popped up a couple times. The enemies can be threats any place you fail to maintain. The problem with that is it will require more work the more you play. You expand your home, work area, town, etc. and you need light for all of it. Not to mention there's no way to do it reasonably in SMP. You log out for a few hours (common suggestion is they burn out after a few minecraft days), and your entire home will be completely dark.

There are a good number of comments on changing the enemies. The catch is almost all of them are suggestions of removing the existing enemies, and implementation of surface animals based on biomes. Very few would even be found in a cave much less deep underground. I like the idea of making the enemies realistic. I'm ok with getting rid of the zombies and skeletons. Unless there is something to replace the danger lost in caves, however, mining will become absolutely boring.

I don't have any specific entities in mind, but I do have two ideas as to how to implement the challenge.

1) Each kind of rock has its own set of ores it can have in it, right? And ores are used for metals of various tiers. Since the rock layers don't seem to be affected by depth (I've seen Basalt on the surface and with bedrock), maybe the value of ores that could potentially be in there would be the determining factor of enemy difficulty. Then have all the weak enemies show up in the least valuable rocks, and really strong enemies in the most valuable rocks. It can be done, because there can be limits set to what a mob can spawn on ie: animals only spawned on grass before breeding came about. I'm not suggesting multiple mobs per each rock type, that would be ridiculous to ask of anyone. Just don't go putting Enderdragon difficulty enemies around the first tier ores.

2) Slimes show that you can set spawning ability by depth as well. You could make stronger enemies, or perhaps stronger versions of the same enemies show up deeper down. This would make it risky to go deep, but you may not have a choice if you can't find what you're looking for elsewhere. Would add a small amount of strategy and risk assessment. Would also provide a good reason to team up in SMP.

[DanNetwalker 8]

1) Each kind of rock has its own set of ores it can have in it, right? And ores are used for metals of various tiers. Since the rock layers don't seem to be affected by depth (I've seen Basalt on the surface and with bedrock), maybe the value of ores that could potentially be in there would be the determining factor of enemy difficulty. Then have all the weak enemies show up in the least valuable rocks, and really strong enemies in the most valuable rocks. It can be done, because there can be limits set to what a mob can spawn on ie: animals only spawned on grass before breeding came about. I'm not suggesting multiple mobs per each rock type, that would be ridiculous to ask of anyone. Just don't go putting Enderdragon difficulty enemies around the first tier ores.

I don't see this clearly... that value, should be calculated once and be used, no mather how many materials have been collected? Or is a number to recalculate again every certain time, so that a place is as dangerous as how many usefull material is left?

Neither of the options completelly appeals to me, maybe the first is more interesting...

2) Slimes show that you can set spawning ability by depth as well. You could make stronger enemies, or perhaps stronger versions of the same enemies show up deeper down.

Ok, tweak that. How about we make it so that certain enemies becames more dangerous the deeper they are in that instant, and others the reverse? Not as a "this is a black spider from the caves, it's more dangerous than the woods' ones", but "this spider is fighting in his home, we are in it's battlegrounds and it has an advantage for that".

A ghast or an ancher should be more dangerous the higher it is, since it has a better line of fire... maybe we improve the aiming ( or the inverse, we nerf it a little when they are not in the favorable situation ).

An spider should feel at home on the surface, or even over the trees, maybe they could see further away, maybe they jump a little longer.

[valkupo 17]

I was worried about not explaining the first one very well... It's hard to give an example because the wiki is kind of lacking the information I would need. So in the interest of clarification I'm going to just going to make up values. As I have yet to get to even making alloys in game, I'm willing to bet money this information on ore/rock distribution is wrong. Please keep in mind the following is only for explaining my idea.

Let's assign the surface a value of 1 for a control. Say for example, Granite could only have the ores Bismuthinite and Cassiterite inside of it. These ores make two really basic metals and a good starter point for most people. Let's assign them both ores a value of 1. That would give Granite a value of 2, even if there wasn't a single ore actually in the entire strata of Granite. Granite would have mobs of a strength slightly harder than the surface. Then say... I dunno Basalt had Native Copper and... something that made Iron. Copper is the next step up so lets give that a 2, Iron is a step after copper (I think) so let's give that a 3. That would give Basalt a value of 5, making it a decent amount harder than walking around in Granite. Again, the value would have nothing to do with what actually spawned in your world. If your world glitched out and didn't spawn any ores in the entire world, the surface would still be 1, Granite would still be 2, Basalt would still be 5, etc.

Just an additional note on that, the mobs will be able to move, so walking around on the surface could have a surprise challenge every once in a while when you walk by caves made of rock with high value.

Ok, tweak that. How about we make it so that certain enemies becames more dangerous the deeper they are in that instant, and others the reverse? Not as a "this is a black spider from the caves, it's more dangerous than the woods' ones", but "this spider is fighting in his home, we are in it's battlegrounds and it has an advantage for that".

A ghast or an ancher should be more dangerous the higher it is, since it has a better line of fire... maybe we improve the aiming ( or the inverse, we nerf it a little when they are not in the favorable situation ).

I see some potential in your fighting on home turf idea, but I kinda see a hole in it. While it makes sense for a creature to be stronger in it's own home, they would need a reason to be out of that home for the effect to wear off. If there's no chance of the effect wearing off, then you're basically just going into the settings and changing the difficulty from normal to hard. It sounds like it will lead to a lot of kiting. Like before the undead mobs got better AI, people would lead them out of caves to let them burn in the daylight with no fighting.

I like the aiming suggestion a lot. It doesn't sound like it would be too hard to make his accuracy go up or down depending on their height level compared to yours. It would add to combat planning, especially for those pvp people if it gets implemented on players as well!

[Antice 2]

I like the idea of mob types spawning being decided by a static difficulty value of the rock strata the spawn occur in. I'd add a bit to the danger value depending on the depth of the strata as well tho. a surface level rock strata should have a lower value than the same rock type that has ended up as a deeper layer. all of these values could be calculated during terrain generation, and would thereafter be saved as part of the biome data for that biome, (the same way the rock strata for each biome variety is chosen and saved at worldgen today)

I do fear however that this would require a gargantuan effort for the mod dev in order to implement well. the way this game works makes it so that each variant of an enemy basically has to be a separate type unless it's a giant version of the same. (the giant tag is still alive in the game i think. it's just not used by vanilla minecraft.)

Other than that. i would love to see more mob variety in general. but adding mob's with their own separate ai behaviour and skins and all that jazz is a lot of work.

[NegiMagica209 2]

How about dens. A small cave that's home to certain mobs and spawners of the same. And the bigger the den the harder the mob? This way mobs could get progressively harder both in the ground and on the surface. Plus, how about the deeper you go into the biomes the stronger the mobs that appear. (especially since MC vanilla has added a large biome choice)

[valkupo 17]

I do fear however that this would require a gargantuan effort for the mod dev in order to implement well. the way this game works makes it so that each variant of an enemy basically has to be a separate type unless it's a giant version of the same. (the giant tag is still alive in the game i think. it's just not used by vanilla minecraft.)

Other than that. i would love to see more mob variety in general. but adding mob's with their own separate ai behaviour and skins and all that jazz is a lot of work.

Truth be told, even I feel like the scale of work done to make my suggestion real is more than overwhelming. I don't expect anything coming remotely soon on this level, but I thought if I put out a couple ideas it might get some sparks of simpler things that could be more easily implemented. Stuff like:

How about dens. A small cave that's home to certain mobs and spawners of the same. And the bigger the den the harder the mob? This way mobs could get progressively harder both in the ground and on the surface. Plus, how about the deeper you go into the biomes the stronger the mobs that appear. (especially since MC vanilla has added a large biome choice)

Now this is interesting. I like the idea of these dens essentially replacing the old dungeons from vanilla. Maybe the only thing I'de like to change is the spawners into "nests". It would more be a visual thing than anything else, but it would make more sense for enemies to come out of nests than magic boxes. Even better, if we pair the dens with DanNetwalker's home turf idea, it could make things gradually more difficult the closer you get to the center of it all. At the center there could be the hardest challenge, but the reward in plain sight in a fairly open area. You can see it, you want it, you know it's a risk as it's surrounded by the meanest toughest enemies of the lot you've faced yet.

You can practically feel the adrenaline, and it's not from a fear of the unknown anymore. It's the power of a known challenge. It's like fighting a Ghast with a fishing rod. He has no surprises for you, all you have is your skill at hooking and dragging him closer to make smacking those fireballs back in his face that much more easier.

...Got a bit excited there, but my point is that there is room for development. If we start with ideas now, it will give Bioxx a better wealth of ideas to choose from when he's deciding on his next TFC project. So how bout some cave/underground dwelling mob ideas? Obvious choices are things like the giant spider we have, and perhaps some humanoid bandits. Bats would fit well as a significant challenge (think about trying to hit one), but the thought of the coding needed for AI in something like that is a terrifying prospect. Maybe some creepy crawlies? Can navigate walls like the spiders do, but a more ambitious approach could have them crawling along ceilings as well or waiting to drop down on a passerby. What other hungry dangers might you find in a cave?

[Antice 2]

Replacing the vanilla dungeons with dens' and then stocking them up with critters that arent spawning anywhere else is interesting. but something would have to be done about the way the spawners operate today. maybe the den could be populated when generated? just have them critters stay persistent, maybe even spawn a few extra to go raid the player if he is within a certain range? That would be terrific i think, and it would not need to be too large a change at first.

just convert a zombie dungeon into a necromancers den. add in some kind of necrodude and his elite undead, have him regularly "create" a spawn of regular zombie raiders that would then be autopathed out to the surface where they will roam the area before perishing at dawn. the regular zombies could use their old ai still, with the only real change to it being that they would have an initial path to follow to the surface for the raid mechanic.

[valkupo 17]

Replacing the vanilla dungeons with dens' and then stocking them up with critters that arent spawning anywhere else is interesting. but something would have to be done about the way the spawners operate today. maybe the den could be populated when generated? just have them critters stay persistent, maybe even spawn a few extra to go raid the player if he is within a certain range? That would be terrific i think, and it would not need to be too large a change at first.

just convert a zombie dungeon into a necromancers den. add in some kind of necrodude and his elite undead, have him regularly "create" a spawn of regular zombie raiders that would then be autopathed out to the surface where they will roam the area before perishing at dawn. the regular zombies could use their old ai still, with the only real change to it being that they would have an initial path to follow to the surface for the raid mechanic.

You have a good point about the simple swap there. Areas with set mobs on generation is a very doable idea, I believe that's how the NPC villages and even animals spawn now. The raid mechanic adds a nice touch to the idea as well. It would make the hostiles seem actually hostile. Plus it runs a fun risk of upon entering a cave: are you about to be hit by a wave of nasties exiting their lair? If the way villages are created is used on these dens, it would make each of them unique and varying in sizes, too. Of course, the bigger the den, the harder the challenge.

While your necromancer idea might be too fantasy-ish for some, I can actually really get behind it. My main reason is it gives the undead a reason to actually exist in the world. Plus, it's a lot more interesting than bandits. Humanoid enemies always seem to end up as bandits. That's fine, but the necromancer would be able to change it up nicely.

[bsb23 303]

I agree with the above bandits are boring nobody likes boring. Necromancers are a good idea we would need more than that though slimes could spawn from "sludge pools". Their could be a giant spider boss( or perhaps multiple medium ones and then one large one in a stronghold which is considered the boss) these could spawn spiders. however unless these dens were very frequent we would still need something to spawn on the surface that is hostile. Once more i hope these mobs will also be exciting bandits do not make sense either I just realized as we are suppose to be surviving here if there is other people why are we trying to survive rather than walk home.

[NegiMagica209 2]

I agre with giving the undead a reason to exist. I know the point of this mod is to give a harder challenge to surviving and give a skill based experience on it, but nothing says it isn't still minecraft, fantasy stuff can still play a role in here somewhere.

Nests! Didn't think of it before but you are right, nests do make a better feel than mob spawners. That and the respawn time should be decreased compared to mob spawners.

Flying mobs might be hard to code but not impossible.(look at the mo'creatures mod for instance) I wish there were more flying mobs in vanilla. Bats, birds, insects(collectible for alchemy if kept or changed), heck even the infamous promised red dragon if you'd like.

[Antice 2]

You have a good point about the simple swap there. Areas with set mobs on generation is a very doable idea, I believe that's how the NPC villages and even animals spawn now. The raid mechanic adds a nice touch to the idea as well. It would make the hostiles seem actually hostile. Plus it runs a fun risk of upon entering a cave: are you about to be hit by a wave of nasties exiting their lair? If the way villages are created is used on these dens, it would make each of them unique and varying in sizes, too. Of course, the bigger the den, the harder the challenge. While your necromancer idea might be too fantasy-ish for some, I can actually really get behind it. My main reason is it gives the undead a reason to actually exist in the world. Plus, it's a lot more interesting than bandits. Humanoid enemies always seem to end up as bandits. That's fine, but the necromancer would be able to change it up nicely.

The necromancer idea was mainly to avoid having to make too many changes at once. the Den or nest idea can be made to work on more levels than that.

for instance. in order to make the woods more hostile, one could add small nests of different types of predators, even some that are so small that they only contain one or two creatures, the area around the nest could have some kind of change to the environment around it so that the experienced player knows not to venture into it. mommy bear get's angry if you encrouch on her Den i tell ya. she may be docile if you keep away from it, but once you go within a certain range of her den she comes a running to tell you who's boss.

Here are some random Den ideas i got floating around in the old noggin:

forrest biome:

Wolf den:

litter the ground with bones, use the same method for the bones as with flint, just change up the texture and model so that it resembles a sheep's skull. the den itself should be a small hole into the ground with a nest inside. it could spawn new wolf cubs every now and then unless the den was fully populated by a certain number of wolves. the den could send out excess wolves to seek out the player for harrassment attacks every now and then. The main reward for dealing with this den is the nice pile of bones you get from the bone piles, and the nice shiny wolf pelts. would need to add some wolf pelt based equipement tho.

Swamp biome:

Crocodile nest: No overt clue to it's presence(except the fact that you are in a swamp). there will be a pile of leaves adn dirt there. this is the nest. it contains crocodile egg's. the mommy crock is going to be close by and she is hungry (guardian crocodile). the nest could spawn small crocodiles every now and then until desroyed or mommy crocodile is killed. she is a bit bigger and meaner than the rest of the crocodiles swimming around in the swampy waters. they are fairly slow and will not attack unless you are very close while on land, but get in for a swim and they will rappidly close in and attack you. the reward for killing mommy crockodile and all her pal's? Crocodile skin and meat. I know you want that pair of green crockodile boots.

These were the ones i had put some thought into already, I am certain someone could come up with tons more.

[DanNetwalker 8]

I've though about this den thing (before reloading this thread and seeing it called "den"), and I got some ideas together. Care to take a look? http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/617-monster-nests-a-new-model-for-spawning/

[valkupo 17]

I've though about this den thing (before reloading this thread and seeing it called "den"), and I got some ideas together. Care to take a look? http://terrafirmacra...l-for-spawning/

DanNetwalker's thread provides a well thought out and very detailed idea for what we've said about dens/nests. I highly suggest everyone to go take a look at it.

Antice, I like your idea about visual cues for what kind of nest you are in. If you don't mind, could you put it in DanNetwalker's thread? Since the den/nest idea has it's own thread now, does anyone have any other ideas on how to make enemies progressively more challenging? Something that could make a starting character go, "I can see that -insert suggestion- over there, and I know that is WAY out of my league."

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Dunk here. We are looking into adjusting the spawn levels and rates of mobs (specifically, I am), but we aren't going to do it to fill a purpose. This isn't going to be an RPG where things happen so conveniently.

[Jivix 21]

Since the den/nest idea has it's own thread now, does anyone have any other ideas on how to make enemies progressively more challenging? Something that could make a starting character go, "I can see that -insert suggestion- over there, and I know that is WAY out of my league."

Sorry Valkupo, I don't think Deathclaws are real

[valkupo 17]

Dunk here. We are looking into adjusting the spawn levels and rates of mobs (specifically, I am), but we aren't going to do it to fill a purpose. This isn't going to be an RPG where things happen so conveniently.

I look forward to it with great anticipation my good man.

Sorry Valkupo, I don't think Deathclaws are real

Er... I have no idea what those are, but I certainly hope not?

Taking a look at the linked picture though, and I suppose a scary appearance would be a good way of making you want to turn tail and run. I was more hoping for something not aesthetic-based though. I'll admit, however, that it would be needed so you can tell without having played before.

[RogueHydra 32]

I'm starting to wonder now, how much based in reality is this mod going to be. Especially since it's essentially modeling dwarf fortress (which has elves, unicorns, zombies, and goblins). Not to ruffle any feathers but I think a unicorn burger would make a damn good sandwich and a side of pixie fries. (or maybe pixie dust is just a recreational drug).

[Jivix 21]

Valkupo, you mean you don't want any vampire bunnies? It would provide for some interesting youtube videos...

OH I got one. How about if you enter a body of water larger than 3x3 and more than 2 deep, you get sucked under the water by Carp? (DF reference)

Big hulking bears would be cool. They just loaf around and once every day or two they'll charge a non-hostile mob and maul it, including you if you're too close. Of course then we'd need some way for passive mobs to reproduce without player intervention.

[RogueHydra 32]

Evil biomes where dead bodies come back as zombies too! Ttotally went to get a drink and a zombie bobcat corpse killed half my dwarf population haha.