Water Pump the TFC Way edited again

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I have seen a lot of water pumps proposed.

One thing they all have in common, is that they all want to change the way water behaves and or add a whole bunch of pipes and valves. Don’t get me wrong pipes are ok but not for early or mid-game. They should not be used until later in the game.

My idea of a water pump is a device that can move 1 water source block from 10 blocks dawn.

That is as much as a suction pump can do.

The pump needs to be at a maximum of 10 blocks higher than the water body. Be it a river or pond.

From there you have to use canals to move the water horizontally. Since water will flow for 7 blocks before it needs a slope you can  make it 70 blocks farther.

To be usable we need to tweak a few things, like been able to fill jugs and buckets from flowing water. Also I have no idea if flowing water irrigates farm blocks.

I would like this system to be obtainable by mid game. Like copper age.

A water wheel or windmill would provide power for the pump.

 

 

History: The first suction pump may have been invented by the Egyptian engineer Ctesibius in the 3rd century B.C. Suction pumps were in use during the time of the Romans, and diagrams exist showing an early European pump model from the 15th century.
More pictures

The Water wheel

 

The mechanics: gears and the pump, in the image a note block

 

 

The top where the water source is created

[lordbufu 7]

Since farmland does get watered from flowing water a system like this in copper age would mean being able to make farmland on hill area for 70 blocks long and 4 blocks wide .... sounds a bit to much to me tbh. Removing that function would make farming in other areas harder then it should be.

 

I like the idea of a pump for fresh drinking water in the more hilly areas, maybe something more like a ground water pump that you can use simular to a barrel to fill wooden buckets etc, with maybe a limit per day seeing as you taking water from the dirt/ground below the hill. Maybe even with a manual interaction like the bellows.

 

But the idea suggest seems a bit OP for the copper age if you ask me.

 

*edit: Removed image link of hand pump, use your imagination my google image is having a bad week

Edited 10 Jul 2014 by lordbufu

[TonyLiberatto 364]

You have to remember that you need 10 pumps to elevate water 100 blocks, then you need to build a canal 3 blocks wide with the center block lower.

All that work just to go 70 blocks away from the pond or river.

ponds and rivers are usually about level 145 the maximum high you can build is 256 so you can have a maximum of 11 pumps and move a water source 77 blocks horizontaly. Less if you consider that river and ponds are usually in lower terrain than everywhere else.

What i am trying to propose here is to be able to build my base just a little bit away from the river.

I( never consider the possibility of taking the water to the top of a mountain and make farms coming down. 

[AllenWL 186]

Um, a few questions.

What will the pump look like?

What will power the pump?

How big will the pump be?

I'm guessing it'll be ten blocks tall but.....

 

 

You have to remember that you need 10 pumps to elevate water 100 blocks, then you need to build a canal 3 blocks wide with the center block lower.

All that work just to go 70 blocks away from the pond or river.

ponds and rivers are usually about level 145 the maximum high you can build is 256 so you can have a maximum of 11 pumps and move a water source 77 blocks horizontaly. Less if you consider that river and ponds are usually in lower terrain than everywhere else.

Um, a pump moves a water source ten blocks up, right?

And water goes eight blocks before stopping. Seven blocks if you remove the block below the eight block.

So the equation for low far water can be should be 7x how high the block is compared to where you wanted the water to be+1

 

So if you use 11 pumps to move water 110 blocks up, then the water would be able to as long as 7x(110-how high your build is from the water)+1.

If your build is say, 5 blocks higher than the water, then it would be 7x105+1, or 736 blocks total.

However, this would have limited uses as you would only really be able to use the last eight blocks for farming unless you where able to get farmland next to the water as it comes in a stair formation. And it would also look rather odd

 

 

 

I'd rather a pump two blocks tall, with a input and output side, and when powered with water touching the input side(source or flow, both works), it would 'extend' the flow block in it's output side

Like: [o]w

       w

w being water and I and O being input and output respectively.

This would let us take water anywhere we want as long as we can afford the pumps, and in nearly every shape we want.

(Note: this was proposed exactly like this in my mechanical power thread. Well, that's one way of moving water without loads of pipes and valves and changing water physics, right? )

The red steel buckets can still be there for people who want to play with source blocks

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Now you did it. I am not even liking my own idea.

I wanted to limit how far you could go with the water.

Not a source block just flowing water.

To be able to make my farms just up the slope a few blocks away from the river or lake.

I don't want a all powerful pump that can take water 1000 blocks away.

Please ideas. 

[Palisight 34]

The plausibility examples you cited do not fit your implemention descriptions

 

You basically cited this (starts at pdf page 220)

 

https://archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

 

And you are describing needing multiple pumps (all of which require human operation) and producing flowing water that could be moved 70 blocks (implying continuous instead of batch flow)

 

You also suggested a invention that required iron to be copper age. And cited a example that used pipes and valves for a implementation that shouldn't have pipes and valves

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Thanks palisight.

You made me think on what kind of pump we could use.

The pump in the picture was used 300 BC and it does not need iron.

also no pipes just canals or aqueducts.

[Palisight 34]

https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~crorres/screw/screw.pdf

 

The Archimedean screw pump requires mechanical power of some sort (human or automatic)

 

While I can see it creating flowing water, I can not see using multiple of them in a row to get to even higher heights.

 

There basically has to be a body of water for it to be used. Modern industrial ones get maximum volumetric flowrates of 11 m^3/s out of them.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I edit the post no more multiple pumps.

Also the pump would use either a water wheel or a windmill

70 blocks should be enough for the mid game proposition.

It would allow for the player to wait until the pump to build a more permanent base.

I just hate how with the existing mechanics I have to build my base piratically on top of the river to have quick access to water.

With this pump I would have water going inside my house so I could refill my jugs.

[Palisight 34]

Ok I did some checking

 

Even water level 7 is sufficient to hydrate crops 4 blocks away, so flowing water can still irrigate your crops. (I have no idea if you can spawn flowing water without spawning a source block)

 

The height limit would be determined by the length of the Archimedean screw pump, which brings up the next point

 

Archimedean screw pumps have to be placed at the angles they are. Minecraft doesn't do angles well at all......

[lordbufu 7]

You have to remember that you need 10 pumps to elevate water 100 blocks, then you need to build a canal 3 blocks wide with the center block lower.

All that work just to go 70 blocks away from the pond or river.

ponds and rivers are usually about level 145 the maximum high you can build is 256 so you can have a maximum of 11 pumps and move a water source 77 blocks horizontaly. Less if you consider that river and ponds are usually in lower terrain than everywhere else.

What i am trying to propose here is to be able to build my base just a little bit away from the river.

I( never consider the possibility of taking the water to the top of a mountain and make farms coming down. 

 

Think i missed the ball on the concept there completely

 

Before i screw that up again, you do mean that the pump will emite flowing water correct ?

I take it thats what you mean by building the canal 3 wide with a lower center block ?

 

Resulting into having a water stream 7 blocks long, 10 blocks away from the where ever the water is being pumped from correct ?

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Once again.

My idea is to have a device, construction, multiblock, waterver, that can when connected to a power source and to a water source block on the bottom create another one 10 blocks higher.

This way using canals you can create a stream 70 blocks long.

I have been really busy this week with work so no much time to think it all.

I will edit the op and credit anyone that can give me ideas on how to do this. 

I agree angles in minecraft is a bad idea. We need a diferent pump. maybe one that just goes vertically 10 blocks.

Out to work now. Hope you guys can help me with suggestions.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

minecraft doesn't like diagonals

[AllenWL 186]

How about up ten blocks, then out the other side?

To put in pictures:

                       [O]wwwwww

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

                       [  ]

wwwwwww[ I ]

W is water, I is input, O is output, and [  ] is he 'pipe' blocks.

 

I think this would be as diagonal as we can get, and it moves water 10 blocks up(11 blocks if you count the block the water is on before being pumped)

Though, I wonder how we would make this in a 3x3 crafting grid.

something this tall would really need a ton of things to justify it's size, and nine won't do at all......

Maybe craft a bunch of parts and put them together?

 

Anyways, this is a screw pump, so it'll need a screw.

What's the screw gonna be made of? wood or metal? and if metal, what kind of metal? will the kind of metal effect the screws effectiveness?

[Palisight 34]

The [] blocks are going to have to be pipe blocks crafted seperately from the pump

 

Maybe something like this

 

  [Output Valve]wwwwww

                       [P]

                       [P]

                       [P]

                       [P]

                       [P]

                    [P]

                    [P]

                    [P]

                    [P]

                    [P]

                    [P]

  wwwwwww[ I Pump]

/

  I

  I

[Mechanical Power]

 

 

If the pipes are made with orientation metadata only used to make the pipe vertical (sides would be identical), you could get a maximum of 12 block lift (11 pipes+ output valve)

 

Of course the devs already know this and know they could make a maximum lift lower than 12 blocks. I'm just pointing out design constraints for people who are making suggestions

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Ok I finally had the time to create some images.

This has been my idea since the start. the only difference is that for a time I considered using multiple pumps but it would not work.

So I don't really know what kind of pump that would be. suction, reciprocating, push pump, I don't care.

Is a pump it will move a water source block 10 blocks up because this is a game.

Do we need it? No

Would it be cool to have one? I think so.

[Maga 99]

I recognize the whole water issue in tfc but I won't believe for one second that this is the proper way to address it.

1) Generate water table layer along with stone layer generation that follows surface contour.

2) after caves and ravines generate, do a second round of generating air pockets (kinda like hot springs but shaped differently) at or near the surface and fill them according to how much of the air pocket dips below the water table

3) allow players to create regular water channels or implement aquaducts/irrigation mechanics (thread already exists)

4) leave the re-location of water source blocks to the end game where it belongs

[lordbufu 7]

Since you going straight up now with the pump, it kinda nukes the believable aspect of it for me.

Although i now get the idea you are after, at the begining i had a little issue getting the whole picture.

 

Im not sure if having actual water come from a pump that earlier game is the best idea in terms of ballance is what im trying to get at basicly. The screenshot you edited into the OP is a nice example, but think of what would happen if a hill was closer to the water, i could make lots of farmland along side the water stream with little to no effort simply because it produces a water stream.

 

1) Generate water table layer along with stone layer generation that follows surface contour.4) leave the re-location of water source blocks to the end game where it belongs

 

I have to agree strongly with point 4, but point 1 also has good potential id say.

Having information on certain areas how much water is in the ground would allow for a more dynamic way of getting fresh water from the ground, in other words a ground water pump. Although im somewhat unsure how this would work with higher elevations etc.

 

You could limit a whole lot of things to that pump so it doesnt make later game buckets useless, for example it could hydrate land around the pump for a certain radius allowing farmland to be near it (lets say for example a 3 wide strip 3x3 = 9 - 1 = 8 slabs of farm land). If you want to take it further it could even be larger or smaller depending on the amount of ground water in the area. Meaning that the higher you go from sea level the less effective the pump becomes and thus the more you need to build.

 

I believe they actually used these kinda systems, but i dint do a whole lot of research on that area so i might be horrible wrong, but i imagen having windmills or a wheel driven by animals would be the way they have powered a pump of these sorts back in the day.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

 

Im not sure if having actual water come from a pump that earlier game is the best idea in terms of ballance is what im trying to get at basicly. 

That's why you can only move water so far. Is not like you can move it 1000 blocks

 

 

I have to agree strongly with point 4, but point 1 also has good potential id say.

Having information on certain areas how much water is in the ground would allow for a more dynamic way of getting fresh water from the ground, in other words a ground water pump. Although im somewhat unsure how this would work with higher elevations etc.

 

You could limit a whole lot of things to that pump so it doesnt make later game buckets useless, for example it could hydrate land around the pump for a certain radius allowing farmland to be near it (lets say for example a 3 wide strip 3x3 = 9 - 1 = 8 slabs of farm land). If you want to take it further it could even be larger or smaller depending on the amount of ground water in the area. Meaning that the higher you go from sea level the less effective the pump becomes and thus the more you need to build.

 

I do think red buckets are useless. By the time we get there the only thing they are used for is decoration on the form of Fountains.

Your whole base is all build up. You already have your farms and ranch with animals and the foundry, Is not likely that you will move.

 

As far as going down hill. You are dependent on the terrain ans in not that different than making your farm all around a pond. With the pump you need less leveling of the terrain.

I think this concept of a pump is already so limited since is not connected to infinite pipes , that is a mid term between the wood bucket and the red bucket.

Just remember with a red bucket you can make your farm in the middle of the desert 1000 blocks away from any lake or river. How believable is that? 

[lordbufu 7]

That's why you can only move water so far. Is not like you can move it 1000 blocks

 

Linkage

 

Got sick of creative, but im quite sure i/you can extend a stream for as long as i/you can manage to keep myyour patcience, never really tried to find out what the max range is if there is any at all. I doubt this can be limited in a proper way as it vanilla mechanics, and changing it to much might affect gameplay that isnt related to farming.

 

 

As far as going down hill. You are dependent on the terrain ans in not that different than making your farm all around a pond. With the pump you need less leveling of the terrain.

I think this concept of a pump is already so limited since is not connected to infinite pipes , that is a mid term between the wood bucket and the red bucket.

 

Its quite different from making a farm around a pond, simply because sloping down can be a lot more effort compared to terraforming a hill to your needs. For one, around a pond you are limited to how much dirt there is before hitting stone and needing to use a pick axe. While when going down a slope one can simply expand the slope to suit your needs at the cheap cost of stone shovels to get the dirt, not even to mention one could even just build a floating farm on top of stonebricks (although i doubt this would be an effective way of doing so).

 

 

I do think red buckets are useless. By the time we get there the only thing they are used for is decoration on the form of Fountains.

Your whole base is all build up. You already have your farms and ranch with animals and the foundry, Is not likely that you will move.

 

So your basicly saying that once your at red steel buckets you have no itention of making other bases in locations that might have goodbetter resources or animals (or nicer looking terrain for that matter) ? I dunno but for me minecraft is all about having things in different place instead of trying to hoard it all to one location, obviously you'd have some kind of main base, but i can't think of a reason why i would want to stick to that one location i build from the "start" of my world. Hench if i find a spot 4000/5000 blocks away from my main base, id love to build me some farms etc there simply because going up and down might get slightly anoying. Same goes for multiplayer for that matter, i never stick around the one spot i started at, at somepoint ill get tired of the view and need something else to look at while building things.

 

 

Just remember with a red bucket you can make your farm in the middle of the desert 1000 blocks away from any lake or river. How believable is that?

 

With the current game mechanics id agree that its not very believable, dont forget though deserts in RL also have Oasis that are (for as far as i have learned atleast) there because of ground water. So if we had somekind a mechanics for ground water, having a water source in the middle of the desert could be a lot more believable if the area had a high reading of ground water, cause the ground would simply not "consume" the water the second you placed it.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Well from dunks comments looks like they are going to introduce ground water so we will have wells. 

We just have to wait and see how the game is going to be.

There are so many things that will come on build 79.

Who knows if we will ever have some kind of mechanical power!

[Cricas 0]

There is a post talking about water channels and I think if you remove the limitations and let us have the channels go as far as we want to build you would be a lot better.

With the pump we would be able to start higher so it would be easy to build the channel.

[Wandering_eye 3]

I think pipes could be probable, if they connected to vertical wooden support beams and behaved similar to horizontal support beams. As well as that water would only flow along them for 8 blocks (or maybe 16 so there is a point to using them instead of just having flowing water) this could be a way to use pipes with the pumps.