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      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
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Ethreality

Ore Tiers

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I was just wondering if anybody had a more or less complete list of the ore tiers/progression..?

After finally getting all tin tools, I know I need to get enough copper to make an anvil..

But what comes after that? What's the next goal?

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I know I need to get enough copper to make an anvil..

I stumbled into copper by sheer accident before I even had enough zinc for one tool. I was wandering around trying to find clay and while walking through a jungle to get back home I fell into a pit with some pigs and there was copper in the wall.

Came back later after I had a pick and there was 24 units of the stuff (now that I think about it, I'm just shy of an anvil, aren't I?).

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The only ore I've ever found in rocks on the surface has been the ores for the three tier 0 metals (Cassiterite, Sphlarite, Bismuthinite), and Native Copper. A friend of mine found a single Tetrahedrite in a rock, so I know others are possible, they're just not common.

I think that any ore that is seen in surface rocks could also appear as exposed ore in a mountain or in the banks of a river / lake. The only exposed ore I've ever seen was also native copper, and the amount I found was far more than the 24 that Draco got. I finished my copper anvil, finished my bronze anvil, and made about 8 bronze tools before I stopped mining, and there's still some left :D

What the wiki doesn't show is the depth levels where they can be found. From what I've seen, Gabbro is the most sought rock type, because it's the only rock that can contain Garnierite (Nickel). I've come across a lot of Gabbro, but it is always on the surface, and I'm pretty sure that high tier metal ores cannot be found near the surface. There's an Ore Survey thread, but they don't ask for the y-values for the ore that is found, and no one is posting to it anyway, so we're unlikely to get answers that way.

You can learn a lot about the layout of rock/minerals/ore by opening a world in mcEdit, and then cutting out walls to explore:

Posted Image

Or, you can run other tools to get block statistics based on y-values. I expect that before long someone will do this type of research and post their results. If no one else does, I may have to :)

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I think that any ore that is seen in surface rocks could also appear as exposed ore in a mountain or in the banks of a river / lake. The only exposed ore I've ever seen was also native copper, and the amount I found was far more than the 24 that Draco got. I finished my copper anvil, finished my bronze anvil, and made about 8 bronze tools before I stopped mining, and there's still some left :D

There might be more in that area, I just found two small pockets and didn't dig into the stone surrounding it looking for more, as I have no way to melt the copper yet.

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There might be more in that area,

Undoubtably there is. Veins near the surface tend to be spread through a decent sized area small amounts. If you had a propick, then you would know for sure, but there are probably another 4-5 tiny veins like just like the one you found all near each other.

The vein I found was strange. It was near the top of a hill, but in a lake that was about 6 blocks below the surface. The dirt above the lake had either caved in or was cut off by the terrain gen, because the shape of the lake is the same that you normally see undeground. All the copper was tightly packed together. I've never seen another vein near the surface like that.

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Well, that's pretty explanatory Deviator :P Many thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. Except I have to read very carefully not to spoil anything :o

Also, I did the same thing Draco :P Except I'd already found native copper nuggets.. So when I mined out the wall with my one precious pick, I was disappointed when I got like 12 nuggets.

Except they weren't nuggets, apparently, and when my bloomery starting giving me more copper, I didn't complain :P

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The only ore I've ever found in rocks on the surface has been the ores for the three tier 0 metals (Cassiterite, Sphlarite, Bismuthinite), and Native Copper. A friend of mine found a single Tetrahedrite in a rock, so I know others are possible, they're just not common.

I think that any ore that is seen in surface rocks could also appear as exposed ore in a mountain or in the banks of a river / lake. The only exposed ore I've ever seen was also native copper, and the amount I found was far more than the 24 that Draco got. I finished my copper anvil, finished my bronze anvil, and made about 8 bronze tools before I stopped mining, and there's still some left :D

What the wiki doesn't show is the depth levels where they can be found. From what I've seen, Gabbro is the most sought rock type, because it's the only rock that can contain Garnierite (Nickel). I've come across a lot of Gabbro, but it is always on the surface, and I'm pretty sure that high tier metal ores cannot be found near the surface. There's an Ore Survey thread, but they don't ask for the y-values for the ore that is found, and no one is posting to it anyway, so we're unlikely to get answers that way.

You can learn a lot about the layout of rock/minerals/ore by opening a world in mcEdit, and then cutting out walls to explore:

Posted Image

Or, you can run other tools to get block statistics based on y-values. I expect that before long someone will do this type of research and post their results. If no one else does, I may have to :)

The reason you won't find y values is dunk has forbidden that kind of detailed information to be put on the wiki. However you can read about it in the most recent pages of 46c experimentation; ores thread. The latest pages deal with 47f. It's quite interesting. The best place to have Gabbro is the second layer, as it is not possible to find nickel or gold in the first layer, and in the third layer it is not quite as common. I started to do cross sections of the top of the third layer of Gabbro in my survival road to get some nickel. I found some at y 40-50. Which is actually really low for nickel. I'm excited to make my first black steel and then red steel! But yeh, Gabbro is the best rock type IMO. You can get native gold, copper, tetrahedrite (more copper and silver) and nickel. However it has no iron.
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Except they weren't nuggets, apparently, and when my bloomery starting giving me more copper, I didn't complain :P

:D

I've noticed that all nuggets and ore from the ground seems to have a mass of 4.5kg in the bloomery, even though the nuggets area really 1/4 the size of the regular ore. And, you still need a 1:1 charcoal/ore ratio, even with nuggets, so you end up wasting a lot of charcoal with nuggets.

The reason you won't find y values is dunk has forbidden that kind of detailed information to be put on the wiki.

Yeah, I've seen that. I think that general anecdotal evidence (like what I've posted here so far) is fine.

It's all probably going to change soon anyway, as Bioxx is changing how the rock layers are arranged with the polar/equatorial update.

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The reason you won't find y values is dunk has forbidden that kind of detailed information to be put on the wiki.

That's about as ridiculous as not putting the info about UU-Matter crafting on the IndustrialCraft wiki. :

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That's about as ridiculous as not putting the info about UU-Matter crafting on the IndustrialCraft wiki. :

On the whole I understand it. It's not vital information and finding it out by yourself is quite fun.
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That's about as ridiculous as not putting the info about UU-Matter crafting on the IndustrialCraft wiki. :

It is to do with a simple fact: Bioxx (who was the one who forbid it, not Dunk) doesn't want this game turning into a "numbers game". It's no fun that way :S

I like the mystery, it gives the game a more immersive feel than old minecraft had where there was statistics about EVERYTHING.

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That's about as ridiculous as not putting the info about UU-Matter crafting on the IndustrialCraft wiki. :

bullcrap.

What was the best part about playing minecraft for the first time? Mystery. Everything was new and exciting. Minecraft had a finite amount of mystery to it, so once you kinda discovered it all, it got rather bland. TFC has a lot more mystery, and I don't want it spoiled.

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That's about as ridiculous as not putting the info about UU-Matter crafting on the IndustrialCraft wiki. :

TFC is intended to be more flexible than IndustrialCraft...as in, by design, there should be no clear-cut, ultimate endgame choice.

At least, I recall something like that being discussed at some point.

(Hey, why not make some materials have more than three forging rules and/or a greater margin for passable error to make them harder to work with no loss to durability thereby creating situations where x material is generally stronger, but more likely to be flubbed up by amateurs and therefore not as practical as y material which has less rules and won't craft unless its closer to perfect...but is generally not as long lasting? Just thinking out loud.)

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What was the best part about playing minecraft for the first time? Mystery. Everything was new and exciting. Minecraft had a finite amount of mystery to it, so once you kinda discovered it all, it got rather bland. TFC has a lot more mystery, and I don't want it spoiled.

The problem is that I'm forced to use the wiki for TFC, because it's crafting system is so detailed and obtuse. I was trying to forge a copper anvil last night and after getting two bars to Red Hot**** and into the anvil GUI, the "weld" button still didn't work.

So I checked the wiki and found that all welds require flux.

That's not discovery. That's an excersize in frustration. By hiding information and not puting it on the wiki to "encourage exploration" all you do is frustrate people. For example, what if you "hid" information on what stones are viable flux materials? What about hiding the information on what heat level different metals are workable at?

That's my point: either have all information, or have none. If a piece of information is discoverable, it's going to show up on the internet somewhere. If it shows up somewhere, why not have it all show up in one place?

TFC is intended to be more flexible than IndustrialCraft...as in, by design, there should be no clear-cut, ultimate endgame choice.

At least, I recall something like that being discussed at some point.

Except that TFC is even more hyperlinear than Vanilla.

T0 materials get you T1 materials get you T2 materials...all the way up to T6.

Advancing from T(n) materials to T(n+1) requires 12 bars of T(n+1) to make an anvil, then 1 additional bar per tool. Every tool has the same requirements to make (the "rules" section) although some actions are more efficient. Which, while I could discover the optimal hit pattern myself, I don't have the wealth of materials to experiment (which means that the next time I sit down with a bar of zinc, I'm going to start counting pixels and arrive at the solution mathematically on paper).

Charcoal is gained in exactly 1 manner.

All materials T1 and up are refined in the same manner (bloomery).

All food comes from 1 source: pigs or cows (as crops take days of real time to grow and unfeasably difficult to maintain). Or fishing, which I hear is not actually infinite, but I don't feel like spending my time fishing. I'm already sitting around waiting for things to happen (charcoal, sluices, crops...)

All T0 materials are gained via sluicing (or as I have discovered, picking up small stones is faster even though I am told It Should Not Be).

Due to mineral scarcity, you have even fewer choices about what to make. My first zinc tool was a pick axe so that I could do anything with regards to digging. Then a chisel so I could make a bloomery. Now a hammer so I can smash this limestone I have into flux (FYI: borax disolves in water, I don't see why it should completely use a stone hammer and chalk is so soft it is crushable with your hands). So I get to spend not 4, not 6, but 10 hours doing nothing but collecting gravel and dumping it into a sluice.

That does not sound like "flexible" progression to me.

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In reply to Draco18.

That is without a doubt, the most POINTLESS rant I have ever seen. Almost every single example you used was NOT stuff that Bioxx doesn't want known, in fact, it's all on the wiki. All of it! The wiki is there to provide a sort of tutorial, show you how to do things and survive. It has reference to all that stuff. But what Bioxx doesn't want happening is it becoming a game of numbers.

"X ore can be found at Y axis X and is X% of all materials in that layer" or "use X pattern for 100% maximum efficiency in creating X tool" or "tier X [tool] can take X amount of [tool action] before breaking" or "X food has X amount of saturation" or "X weapon does X points of damage".

This is all stuff that is not naturally observable in definite terms except by experience, and even then vaguely. These kinds of things are best learned by yourself, it's new, it's fun, it's exciting!

All I can say is you really need to calm down and take a objective look at the bullshit you're spouting.

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In reply to Draco18.

That is without a doubt, the most POINTLESS rant I have ever seen. Almost every single example you used was NOT stuff that Bioxx doesn't want known, in fact, it's all on the wiki. All of it! The wiki is there to provide a sort of tutorial, show you how to do things and survive. It has reference to all that stuff. But what Bioxx doesn't want happening is it becoming a game of numbers.

Ahem:

Either have all information, or have none. If a piece of information is discoverable, it's going to show up on the internet somewhere. If it shows up somewhere, why not have it all show up in one place?

"X ore can be found at Y axis X and is X% of all materials in that layer" or "use X pattern for 100% maximum efficiency in creating X tool" or "tier X [tool] can take X amount of [tool action] before breaking" or "X food has X amount of saturation" or "X weapon does X points of damage".

This is all stuff that is not naturally observable in definite terms except by experience, and even then vaguely. These kinds of things are best learned by yourself, it's new, it's fun, it's exciting!

Just over here I found a discussion on the durability and material costs of Red Steel vs. Normal Steel. If I had looked at the wiki I would not have known, even in a vauge sense, that Red Steel has twice the durability of Steel (but is less material efficient).

(Oh, and another tidbit that could go on the wiki: nuggets of ore--both sizes--do not evenly divide into bars. It's slightly less than 4 "normal ores" to make a bar, and either 15 or just slightly less than 15* "small nuggets" to make a bar. I'm not worried about exact numbers but information like "there will be overflow, so put in another mold" needs to be added to the wiki.)

*I say "slightly less" as I didn't check for overflow when I found out that it took 15 not 16 to make a bar.

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Ahem:

Just over here I found a discussion on the durability and material costs of Red Steel vs. Normal Steel. If I had looked at the wiki I would not have known, even in a vauge sense, that Red Steel has twice the durability of Steel (but is less material efficient).

(Oh, and another tidbit that could go on the wiki: nuggets of ore--both sizes--do not evenly divide into bars. It's slightly less than 4 "normal ores" to make a bar, and either 15 or just slightly less than 15* "small nuggets" to make a bar. I'm not worried about exact numbers but information like "there will be overflow, so put in another mold" needs to be added to the wiki.)

*I say "slightly less" as I didn't check for overflow when I found out that it took 15 not 16 to make a bar.

First off, I'm sorry for the hostility in my previous post. I was having a really shitty day and took it out on a couple forum posts. I still agree with my point but I don't like the tone I set.

So, on with the discussion! I'm trying to understand what your point is with this post... I think I know, but I don't wantto jump to conclusions...

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Apologizing for ranting? On the internet? Is that allowed?

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My point is that I shouldn't have to resort to Google to determine the benefit of tools made out of one material vs. another, or which type of stone a particular ore or mineral appears in (I'm not asking for Y depth, I'm asking for stone type so I know where to look for when I'm looking to strip mine).

I'm on the fence about details of the Anvil GUI (such as that button X is worth N pixels of progress left or right). It doesn't offer a solution to smithing (or say what the goal value is, or list the rules for various tools), but it allows easily obtainable information to be cleanly presented, such that those of us who like running the numbers* can do so without worrying about material loss. I've got the values for the green buttons, just need to grab the reds.

I can see the argument for "no numbers" but it also doesn't actually give anything away. It doesn't say "here's the best way to make a pickaxe" but allows someone to figure it out for themselves easily.

*I've been doing mathy stuff for Firefall's crafting system recently. I discoverd that it's a lot less complex than it looks like on the surface, but offers a greater depth than first apparent as well.

Although a recent patch has altered the formua for resource blending to be more complex than the last math that was determined, in an attemp to "discourage rare resource gathering." I don't think it's succeeded at it's goal, because there are no rare isotopes available in the world. Every resource node is the same isotope as every other node, and every monster drops that isotope as well.

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Draco, I think you've made your point well. You've convinced me (although to be honest I already shared this opinion). I just don't think that you're going to convince Dunk that we need more information on the wiki, at least not with your current tactics.

Hiding information from the players is not possible. Someone is always going to be curious enough to decompile class files, and then they'll spread the information in chat on the server they play on, and the information gets out. I began playing on a public server for the first time a couple days ago, and within the first day on there, I saw spoilers (regarding which rocks contain Nickel). If I'm going to see spoilers in chat anyway, then I'd like to be able to at least verify them by checking the wiki. The wiki also helps out players who only play on private servers or single player.

So, it seems that the purpose here is not to hide the information from players, but simply to keep it from ruining the mystique that some players prefer.

I've seen a lot of game wikis that have spoiler sections, where you have to click to expand the region that contains spoilers. It seems like that could be a reasonable solution, if the developers are for it. It's ultimately their decision, though, and it's beginning to bother me how much you are arguing with it. There are lots of other games and mods that go to great lengths to hide stuff on their wikis, and you just have to eventually live with it.

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I don't mind discovering stuff, but the enjoyable part of discovery is sharing it with people who aren't interested in working out for themselves.

I guess I'm spoiled or something, whereby the wiki of information is entirely disseminated through players, that is, the dev doesn't put up any information, not because they don't want it there, but because they don't have the time to maintain it.

I contribute to an informative database. There are things that are already known, and that's cool, but when I find something I can share...that, THAT is what's really awesome. It's not so much that I want it all bared before me, but that I can find places where the information is lacking and fill in the gaps.

Speaking of, 90% of the metals pages have hidden red links. For instance, in Red Steel, there are little icons for the recipe, but some of them are not valid. "Unshaped Rose Gold" is fine, "Unshaped Black Steel" is not (some metals use "[metal] Ingot" some use "unshaped [metal]" and a coupel use just "[metal]"--Bismuth, as an exampe--and still others don't even exist, such as "unshaped wrought iron" which despite appearing as an image, does not have a page, including an actual Red Link on Unshaped Black Steel, and doesn't actually exist in the game as far as I can tell, as the crafting progression is Unshaped Pig Iron -> Pig Iron Ingot -> Wrought Iron Ingot).

That said, I do go to the wiki for help, as if I get stuck I go to see if someone else knows the answer. And if it's not there, then I come to the forums and bitch.

I personally would rather learn how to get through the game from reading a wiki than asking for help in chat.

Awkward sentence, not entirely clear on the meaning here.

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Awkward sentence, not entirely clear on the meaning here.

Seemed fine to me. Let me restate again through an example.

The UU-matter recipe for iridium is not published on the IC2 wiki, but all players on mulitplayer servers know it, because someone on chat will help them. It works, but it's not ideal. The more answers available on the wiki, the less spamming in multiplayer chat for help.

The point is that the deepest secrets will get out. If it's not through the wiki, it will be through chat.

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Seemed fine to me. Let me restate again through an example.

The UU-matter recipe for iridium is not published on the IC2 wiki, but all players on mulitplayer servers know it, because someone on chat will help them. It works, but it's not ideal. The more answers available on the wiki, the less spamming in multiplayer chat for help.

The point is that the deepest secrets will get out. If it's not through the wiki, it will be through chat.

There's a difference between a recipe and statistics though

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There's a difference between a recipe and statistics though

Are you suggesting that recipes can be sent through chat, but not statistics?

Edit, don't bother -- I don't want to be trolled into this argument. It's not even the point of my message. I was simply suggesting we may want to consider having spoiler sections in the wiki. I'm not going to argue about what should be in the spoiler sections, and what should not. I'm merely suggesting a way that we can compromise.

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