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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
TonyLiberatto

Boats and Ships

74 posts in this topic

I like the small boats mod, unfortunately, you have to tweak the recipes a little.

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The chisel will not be in TFC2 due to the limitations of Minecraft 1.8. In order to just add detailed mode, we would have to create 512! json files for the block models. That's factorial, not excitement. As in 512*511*510*509... etc, which results in a number that has 1,167 digits in it. The number one million only has 7 digits in it.

 

Sort of off topic, I know, but I'm curious how the new "chisel and bits" mod for 1.8 accomplishes this functionality then.  From your explanation it would be quite impossible to code, so they must have come at it from another angle.  If you haven't seen it, you should check it out.  Its very TFCesque in how it works.  On Direwolf20's server play season 8 series they even describe it as working "basically like TerraFirma Craft's chiseling".

Edited by cckcckcc
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...why would I want to waste time sailing if I can just clap hands and be where I want? Okay, for the first time sailing might be cool and all, but that wears off fast. Though now that I've written the previous sentence, making teleportation more expensive or advanced doesn't solve anything, so now I'm not sure anymore.

Maybe teleportation cost should depend on mass of items carried with player?

 

It is similar concept with IC2 teleporters, but within TFC, you have know exactly mass of almost all items, additionally, 'real' teleportation need to anihilate mass in certain place and create it in other - it need horrific amount of energy.

 

Because TFC, unlike IC2, is not a high energy related technic mod, maybe some magic should be involved instead? For example, you need to sacrifice some rare items, more carried weight require more items (and/or experience points).

 

Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from modern technology :)

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Sort of off topic, I know, but I'm curious how the new "chisel and bits" mod for 1.8 accomplishes this functionality then.  From your explanation it would be quite impossible to code, so they must have come at it from another angle.  If you haven't seen it, you should check it out.  Its very TFCesque in how it works.  On Direwolf20's server play season 8 series they even describe it as working "basically like TerraFirma Craft's chiseling".

You should take a look at the original "Future of Chisels and Planks in TFC2" thread.  Specifically this post from Bioxx, in which he states that it's possible, but he has 'bigger fish to fry'.  Now that's a 6 month old post, so some of us might be hopeful that the situation will change.  We'll see.

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Because so many players are constantly complaining about giving uses to useless items, it is greatly more likely that they will just not exist in TFC2. This obsession with giving items a use for no reason other than them not being useless without putting any thought into how it might contribute to a balanced, believable game is just pointless.

No please gems are rewarding to be found, i love founding gems, they're can be used for trading... :)

I will love if gems can be foundin minerals like Kimberlite. :)

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Another aspect is that just because an ore or mineral is not used by the mod itself does not mean it cant be used by an addon.

There are plenty of materials in the real world for what we have no use right now, it does not mean they will be forever like that, is just a question of time before someone finds a use for it.

Not sure, but I believe there was not much use for Bauxite before we learned how to make aluminum.  

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No please gems are rewarding to be found, i love founding gems, they're can be used for trading... :)

I just realised, that gems can be used to selectively activate teleporters.

Depending on gem type*, you can activate teleporter in different directions (not sure, if you plan to make cardinal directions or hex one)

depending on gem quality (size), you will jump to nearest teleporter or hop over few ones.

Additionally, drop more gems if you need to carry heavy luggage, as mentioned above.

 

*diamonds and emeralds should not be used, because they are commonly used for other mods.

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If gems in TFC2 generate as they currently do, they'd be way too random for activating teleporters in specific directions, possibly even activating them at all.  If gems were to generate in actual blocks, as kimberlite does currently, it might be a bit more doable but only if they generated irrespective of stone type - the islands (last we'd heard) will be entirely one stone type, and I believe only 1 stone layer deep.  If gems generate in specific stones, then you'd only have access to certain gems on any one island (trade and loot aside). 

 

But gems are the last of the problem as far as useless items - there's tons of possibility for magic components there.  The useless ores cause a lot more questions from newbs based on what I've seen on the large server I play on.  They simply make the mod feel incomplete.  As for being a placeholder, if another mod wants them, it can just add them, ya? The only function they serve currently is to hinder efforts to find legitimate ores in the same area.  Which is sort of a valid function - increasing difficulty, but I in my opinion is outweighed by the 'incomplete' feeling it generates.

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On 4/6/2016, 7:02:31, TonyLiberatto said:

Another aspect is that just because an ore or mineral is not used by the mod itself does not mean it cant be used by an addon.

There are plenty of materials in the real world for what we have no use right now, it does not mean they will be forever like that, is just a question of time before someone finds a use for it.

Not sure, but I believe there was not much use for Bauxite before we learned how to make aluminum.  

If an addon wants to use a material that would otherwise be useless if TFC generated it, then the addon should be the one who generates it, not TFC.

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I hope you guys will keep the vanilla boats. The PE/1.9 boats are definitely a huge improvement over the old boat. They could serve as an early-game method for traveling until you advance enough technologically and find the required resources for teleportation.

Concerning the boats in TFC1, I would suggest checking out the Better Boat mod. It fixed some of the issues, like the desyncing.

Edited by atheoang3l0
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Maybe this topic have been discussed a lot of times, but I think I have a cool way of including "teleportation" without having it to involve magic or portals. The idea is basically having boats, like entities, but that cannot move. The point is, when you right click the ship, it would display a really simple map of the world's islands, and then you could choose where to go:

XrDSA34.png

The colored islands are the ones you have conquered and the grey islands are the one you can travel to, but are not conquered. Finally, "fog" will hide other islands.

Spoiler

 

The idea behind this system is making it a viable solution not only for realism, but also to create an "evolving" way of transport:

- Raft: Your first boat. This is the one you have to craft once you are in your first island, which will be already conquered. Crafting a raft would need planks, which will involve crafting a metal tools. Once you have built it, the ship will be placed in a structure that spawns in every island: a dock. You can travel to adjacent islands only

- Cog: This is a compact a rounded ship used in the Middel Age. This boat will need planks, a chest and also wool or other textile materials. When crafted, it  will appear in the docks. This ship will have a travel radius of 2 islands, so you can "skip" one trip. It will also have a storage space and maybe the possibility of transporting animals in it.

-Caravelle: It is a big ship, with a big cargo hold. It would need a big amount of planks, textiles and also metals. It can travel 3 islands without stopping.

 

Spoiler

Some extra ideas to make things clear:

- Ships cannot be broken by using them and cannot be moved from the docks manually. The ship will stay in the docks until you travel with it.

-If you die and you leave the ship in an island, you can recover it by going to the island in other boat.

-The creation of docks should be implemented: block structures made from planks and logs in the Sea. This will come handy if you want multiple boats or you are in a server. Also could include the travelling merchant idea.

-In singleplayer world, boats could act as "beds": a travel by boat will mean a 3 hour advance in time, with the corresponding hunger loss. In multiplayer, only the hunger would be aplyed.

-The problem with the portals would be that if you want to travel to an island that is 3 spaces away to the east, you have to travel 3 x 4000 blocks: 12000. This system would reduce the time spent.

-In case you travel to a island that doesn't have any space in the docks, you will appear in a location close to the docks. Then you can either travel to an island with space, or leave to ship there. If you dont move other ships from the docks the boat that is not in a dock will eventually be destroyed.

Spoiler

This is an example of a ship model I found on the internet

3SKGNb6.jpg

Leave feedback on this idea please, I want to hear opinions, specially from the devs, who seem focused on the portals. Thanks for reading :D

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Well, the general notion of using static boats as 'realistic' portals was suggested early on in this thread.  But in the context of an npc merchant/pirate/whatever owning the ship.  The advantage to this is that you don't have to worry about how many boats are at the docks.  There's only ever npc boats.  So they're basically just elaborate portals.    Player owned boats that travel from dock to dock would be cool and all, but ultimately, imo, probably not worth the time it would take to implement.

Beyond that, I have no problem with magic, so I have no problem with portals and/or teleportation magic.  I see no reason all these travel systems can't exist at the same time.

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5 hours ago, lJuanGB said:

Maybe this topic have been discussed a lot of times, but I think I have a cool way of including "teleportation" without having it to involve magic or portals. The idea is basically having boats, like entities, but that

cannot move. The point is, when you right click the ship, it would display a really simple map of the world's islands, and then you could choose where to go:

XrDSA34.png

The colored islands are the ones you have conquered and the grey islands are the one you can travel to, but are not conquered. Finally, "fog" will hide other islands.

  Hide contents

 

The idea behind this system is making it a viable solution not only for realism, but also to create an "evolving" way of transport:

- Raft: Your first boat. This is the one you have to craft once you are in your first island, which will be already conquered. Crafting a raft would need planks, which will involve crafting a metal tools. Once you have built it, the ship will be placed in a structure that spawns in every island: a dock. You can travel to adjacent islands only

- Cog: This is a compact a rounded ship used in the Middel Age. This boat will need planks, a chest and also wool or other textile materials. When crafted, it  will appear in the docks. This ship will have a travel radius of 2 islands, so you can "skip" one trip. It will also have a storage space and maybe the possibility of transporting animals in it.

-Caravelle: It is a big ship, with a big cargo hold. It would need a big amount of planks, textiles and also metals. It can travel 3 islands without stopping.

 

  Hide contents

Some extra ideas to make things clear:

- Ships cannot be broken by using them and cannot be moved from the docks manually. The ship will stay in the docks until you travel with it.

-If you die and you leave the ship in an island, you can recover it by going to the island in other boat.

-The creation of docks should be implemented: block structures made from planks and logs in the Sea. This will come handy if you want multiple boats or you are in a server. Also could include the travelling merchant idea.

-In singleplayer world, boats could act as "beds": a travel by boat will mean a 3 hour advance in time, with the corresponding hunger loss. In multiplayer, only the hunger would be aplyed.

-The problem with the portals would be that if you want to travel to an island that is 3 spaces away to the east, you have to travel 3 x 4000 blocks: 12000. This system would reduce the time spent.

-In case you travel to a island that doesn't have any space in the docks, you will appear in a location close to the docks. Then you can either travel to an island with space, or leave to ship there. If you dont move other ships from the docks the boat that is not in a dock will eventually be destroyed.

  Hide contents

This is an example of a ship model I found on the internet

3SKGNb6.jpg

Leave feedback on this idea please, I want to hear opinions, specially from the devs, who seem focused on the portals. Thanks for reading :D

Something like 'Sir, You're Being Hunted!'? Cool. But more advanced boats should not be able to skip unconquered islands. 

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I think he means skipping already conquered islands.

Unconquered ones should be conquered beforing them.

 

IjuanGB's idea seems PERFECT to me.

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Nice extension to the idea - well thought-out.

I think, however, that the 'space' at the dock shouldn't really be an issue - we can say tat there is *always* one (or more, but one is enough) ship at a dock and you're effectively teleported to a ship at another dock that looks identical - visually, it's the same ship.  This ties in with your suggestion that the boat doesn't move...

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7 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

I think he means skipping already conquered islands.

Yeah, that is true.

7 hours ago, ChunkHunter said:

Nice extension to the idea - well thought-out.

I think, however, that the 'space' at the dock shouldn't really be an issue - we can say tat there is *always* one (or more, but one is enough) ship at a dock and you're effectively teleported to a ship at another dock that looks identical - visually, it's the same ship.  This ties in with your suggestion that the boat doesn't move...

This was basically because of multiplayer. In singleplayer it would be effective to just have one ship, that is in every island. However, in multiplayer, traders would need bigger ships, while minners could just need a raft or even hire a ship. Also, If we want to implement cargohold, it would be more difficult to deal with different inventories while in the same entity. It would be an ender-chest ship, which I dont think is really into tfc.

Also, who doesn't want big docks with a lot of ships in their cities? That would be awesome!

Well, the general notion of using static boats as 'realistic' portals was suggested early on in this thread.  But in the context of an npc merchant/pirate/whatever owning the ship.  The advantage to this is that you don't have to worry about how many boats are at the docks.  There's only ever npc boats.  So they're basically just elaborate portals.    Player owned boats that travel from dock to dock would be cool and all, but ultimately, imo, probably not worth the time it would take to implement.

Beyond that, I have no problem with magic, so I have no problem with portals and/or teleportation magic.  I see no reason all these travel systems can't exist at the same time.

I am aware that this is more complex than a portal, but this is not only about "realistic portals". This system includes progression for a possible "trader" class for multiplayer, acts as a compatibility for the idea Bioxx talked about: NPCs. It includes a map render, which may be hard to code (I dont know) but will be a really cool and organized way of seeing how is your progress through the world, it will make capital cities have big docks, it will make possible traveling with bigger cargo holds and animals and finally the distance will be shorter from island to island. Imagine having to cross 4 kilometres every island you want to travel through. Now imagine that your iron and gold mines are 4 islands away of you farms. That will be pain to travel.

This system will also force traders to stop every so often, so they have to find viable routes through the map, involving crossing cities where you may have to pay taxes, or sorting pirate islands, that will try to steal you when you get out of the ship. #maketradersgreatagain

Edited by lJuanGB
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On 11/5/2016 at 11:35 PM, lJuanGB said:

XrDSA34.png

The colored islands are the ones you have conquered and the grey islands are the one you can travel to, but are not conquered. Finally, "fog" will hide other islands.

I though that you should be able to see only the overlay of the grey islands.

Edited by Diego il Catanico Jr
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I saw a few other people have suggested small boats I personally think its a great mod that hits the nail on the head when it comes to tfc...and i assume tfc2 compatibility. the boats styles/models and how they work/function are in line with tfcish standards.....as for crafting recipes they are way too easy to make and would need to be tweaked. I am pretty sure this mod is developed by a lone developer with not a lot of time on his hands. Have you considered approaching him and asking if you could borrow some of his code and models to make a TFC2 version of his mod. Its been a while since I tried but from what I remember he is pretty good at responding if you try and contact him.

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You know, I've been doing quite a bit in MC 1.10.2, and I must say, the boat mechanics have been VASTLY improved. They no longer have all the buggy glitchiness that the boats used to have, even on multiplayer servers. Since Mojang finally fixed their boats, it may well be that this topic might need to get revisited.

Now, if you still want to do the island-hopping thing with conquering an island before going on to the next, and some sort of tiered progression of loot involved, that's absolutely great. However, needing a teleport mechanic just because boat mechanics suck is definitely going to need to be revisited, because the boat mechanics don't suck anymore. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the new boats are quite a lot of fun to play around with, as a means of personal conveyance across water.

And I will also go so far as to include another reason to revisit the topic of teleports versus boats, and it's the same reason WoW uses flight paths for the new players to go from location to location instead of a teleport system. First, it gives players scope. If it takes time to get from area to area, it gives the player a sense of just how big the world is. Second, it gives the player a break from having to worry if they're going to get spontaneously jumped by something. You just get to sit sit back and relax for a bit. Third, you don't have to code in teleport from position to position code, which is just going to feel tacked on and immersion-breaking. Remember that TFC is largely about Verisimilitude. How are you going to keep that while having 'click to teleport' world-interaction items? It makes much more sense from an in-world position to have to make a boat and float your way to the next island. Of course, then we get to the old problem of trying to keep them on the right path. You may need buoys or something to mark paths to keep the player from getting lost, or have other identifiable terrain features that the player can go 'aha! that's x, so if I keep going to the left of that, I'll get to where I'm going'. Actually, identifiable terrain features work for several reasons, including something pretty to look at. Of course, then you get into the problem of Minecraft being an openly procedurally generated world versus being a scripted and pre-defined world.

I think I'm starting to ramble here, so I'll cut myself off before the torch-and-pitchfork crowd catch up to me.

 

tl;dr version: We may wish to revisit the idea of boats being non-viable with the vanilla boats actually having been fixed to not suck.

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5 hours ago, ShneekeyTheLost said:

tl;dr version: We may wish to revisit the idea of boats being non-viable with the vanilla boats actually having been fixed to not suck.

We didn't need the teleport mechanic because vanilla boats were glitchy, we needed it because we don't want players to easily hop between islands. We want them to have to do something specific before they are allowed to go to the next island. If they can just get in a boat and go wherever they want, it defeats the entire point. Boating won't give players scope, because the islands are fairly close together in reality. Also, your argument about immersion and 'click to teleport' doesn't work because we said we were using portals, like the vanilla Minecraft portal that you literally just walk through, and not something you have to click on and choose where you want to go.

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We didn't need the teleport mechanic because vanilla boats were glitchy, we needed it because we don't want players to easily hop between islands. We want them to have to do something specific before they are allowed to go to the next island.

I read most of the post and aside from distance between Islands, what deterrent are there to stop players just to swim to the other Islands? I mean, smart movement (I think that is what the add on is called) makes swimming far too easy. I know what you would say, don't use the add on, but the add on add so very good and useful features that enhance the general Minecraft experience (IMHO), and some people just have enough patience to just swim 4k blocks. So, will there be mobs in the sea that make it too dangerous? A stamina bar for swimming?

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15 hours ago, chepelink said:

I read most of the post .....will there be mobs in the sea that make it too dangerous? A stamina bar for swimming?

problem is, as is typical for long running forums, both those suggestions were discussed in another thread.  That one was "Boats & Ships".  If that person had only searched for "boats" maybe this could all be in one thread.   That one also received Dev commentary, so they're both good to know about.

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On 1/7/2017 at 4:16 PM, Darmo said:

problem is, as is typical for long running forums, both those suggestions were discussed in another thread.  That one was "Boats & Ships".  If that person had only searched for "boats" maybe this could all be in one thread.   That one also received Dev commentary, so they're both good to know about.

Oh, sorry about that. That explain why I didn't find any suggestion/questions/thoughts about this in this thread. 

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I still think teleportation gets rid of the challenge of discovering other islands and remembering how to get to them.

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