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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Konlii

Fearsome Critters

21 posts in this topic

How far from real-world animals is TFC2 going to go?  Will it have beasts from mythology, like trolls or unicorns?  Beasts from folklore, like jackalopes or Dwayyo?  Not all mythical creatures would match the flavor of TFC, but some would fit right in.

 

For example, we have here the innocent-looking Drop Bear.  It would spawn only on natural log blocks and hang out in leaf blocks when not aggro'd.  Obviously, its preferred method of attack is to drop onto the player's head and gnaw their face off.

dropbear_1.png

DropBear.MCModel

dropbear.png

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Trolls that change texture to match the stone type of the island they spawn in?

troll_preview.png

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I think that there will be mythical creatures, because I remember reading that TFC 2 will be more themed towards fantasy than realism. I don't remember where I read it, so don't quote me on that. Getting back to the topic, trolls don't change color according to stone, they change to stone if exposed to sunlight. I do like the idea of chameleon trolls tho :). One gripe I have about the model is that the legs look kinda tiny on that thing imho, but it's obviously that way because you thought that was the best way to make a troll model.

Tbh I don't like the drop bear very much, it just seems out of place imho.

Sorry if use "imho" a lot, but since I'm a newb on this forum I think it's important to make clear that it's just my humble opinion.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

 trolls don't change color according to stone, they change to stone if exposed to sunlight.

Tolkienesque trolls maybe (or wherever Tolkien got it from).  There's nothing that says TFC2's version of fantasy has to conform to a certain pre-existing fantasy ouvre.

 

1 hour ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

Tbh I don't like the drop bear very much, it just seems out of place imho.

I think Konlii's version of a drop bear may have been a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Edited by Darmo
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45 minutes ago, Darmo said:

Tolkienesque trolls maybe (or wherever Tolkien got it from).  There's nothing that says TFC2's version of fantasy has to conform to a certain pre-existing fantasy ouvre.

 

I think Konlii's version of a drop bear may have been a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Yeah, I knew where the drop bear came from. That's why I thought it would be out of place. Maybe it would not be so out of place if it spawned on a particular tree (*cough*Eucaliptus*cough*) or in a particular biome.

Also, you're right about Trolls. Sorry.

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Posted (edited)

Well, I blame Discworld for teaching me that trolls match their local stone types, but really it makes sense. If they are traditional trolls that turn to stone during the day, wouldn't they look out of place otherwise?

 

As for the drop bear, I know it's a little silly, but I was trying to get a discussion on how fantastical is too fantastical for TFC2.  If drop bears go too far, what about jackalopes?  What about the Dwayyo?

Edited by Konlii
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Posted (edited)

For me on the other hand - coming from my Dungeons and Dragons background - trolls are lanky terrifying regenerating beasts that you can only kill with fire or acid, and have no special relationship with stone or sunlight.   I didn't mean to say that referencing an existing ouvre is bad - it's actually a good game strategy, because your audience can immediately have familiarity (Orcs are evil pig-nosed humans.  Dragons breath fire and hoard gold.  Dwarves speak with a Scottish accent) which from a roleplaying and immersion standpoint allows them to more easily 'slot in' to the world.  I was just pointing out it doesn't have to be that way, and moreover there are many ouvres to choose from.  

One way the devs could go is just say 'hey modelers, show us what you got'.  And we'd each go with our personal favored stuff, and it could end up rather chaotic and incoherent.

Another way, they could give a setting to pull from.  Tolkien, D&D, Discworld, Classical Greek, etc.  Should give a more coherent experience, though some settings would have an inherently limiting selection.

Or there could be an idea.  'Guys, we're picturing a war between humans, fey, and devils.  Go to work'.  That sort of would allow us to cross several ouvres, but still work toward a coherent theme. 

I guess I'd prefer to see some kind of coherence, if not a theme/story, rather than just whatever enters our heads.  But we'll see.

Edited by Darmo
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2 hours ago, Darmo said:

I guess I'd prefer to see some kind of coherence, if not a theme/story, rather than just whatever enters our heads.  But we'll see.

That's a fair point and probably the smart way to go, but where is the theme in having zombies, bow-wielding animated skeletons, and mutant green explodey-pigs?

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5 hours ago, Konlii said:

That's a fair point and probably the smart way to go, but where is the theme in having zombies, bow-wielding animated skeletons, and mutant green explodey-pigs?

That's legacy stuff from vanilla minecraft.  Granted, possibly the most successful, most poorly planned game ever, so I mean, who needs a theme right?  But my own hope is that as TFC2 matures, those things will be much more limited, to logical scenarios.  Though creepers are pretty hard to logic, imo.  Suicidal powder-keg carrying goblins?

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11 minutes ago, Darmo said:

That's legacy stuff from vanilla minecraft.  Granted, possibly the most successful, most poorly planned game ever, so I mean, who needs a theme right?  But my own hope is that as TFC2 matures, those things will be much more limited, to logical scenarios.  Though creepers are pretty hard to logic, imo.  Suicidal powder-keg carrying goblins?

Yeah, when you look at it with attention Minecraft is cobbled up from many different ideas. It seems more like the devs ask each other "What would be cool to add in this update?" rather than following a theme. Anyway, the creeper was a glitch that occured when Notch was experimenting with the pig model. Notch decided that it would be a shame to throw away the model and kept it (lazy ), later coming up with the idea of a green... thing that explodes. I like the idea of goblins. Maybe you would find small goblin camps on uncharted islands that would occasionally attack the player untile they were wiped out completely?

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I'm familiar with the origin story of the creeper model.  It's funny to me he didn't want to 'throw away' a model that - at least with proper modeling program - would take about 5 minutes to make.   I'm just saying they make no sense at all.  The best I could rationalize them would be as a necromancer cobbling together corpses with explosives inside.  Though somehow we never do find Zakuro.  I do think it'd be fun to have entire islands controlled by necromancers and their minions.

As for the goblin sappers, that's not my idea of course.  Makes more sense than creepers though, to me.  Goblins and orcs are so ubiquitous in fantasy it's hard for me to imagine them not ending up in TFC2 in one form or another.  As I understand it, from way back when, the idea is that there will be dungeons or strongholds that control different parts of the islands, and you have to defeat the 'boss' in them to unlock the ability to place or destroy blocks in that area.  So ya, enemy camps are pretty much already planned as I understand it.   It would definitely be interesting if they could respawn in a more minor form though, even after the main stronghold is destroyed.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Darmo said:

I'm familiar with the origin story of the creeper model.  It's funny to me he didn't want to 'throw away' a model that - at least with proper modeling program - would take about 5 minutes to make.   I'm just saying they make no sense at all.  The best I could rationalize them would be as a necromancer cobbling together corpses with explosives inside.  Though somehow we never do find Zakuro.  I do think it'd be fun to have entire islands controlled by necromancers and their minions.

As for the goblin sappers, that's not my idea of course.  Makes more sense than creepers though, to me.  Goblins and orcs are so ubiquitous in fantasy it's hard for me to imagine them not ending up in TFC2 in one form or another.  As I understand it, from way back when, the idea is that there will be dungeons or strongholds that control different parts of the islands, and you have to defeat the 'boss' in them to unlock the ability to place or destroy blocks in that area.  So ya, enemy camps are pretty much already planned as I understand it.   It would definitely be interesting if they could respawn in a more minor form though, even after the main stronghold is destroyed.

As a matter of fact, my opinion of the minecraft devs is the following : lazy bums.H

However, let's talk about the typical fantasy enemies: in most fantasy games the players will start by fighting critters and the now ubiquitous slimes. The first challenge for the player is usually a goblin "infestation" ( a camp in the forest, a cave inhabited by the beasties, a village that has been taken over...) and will then move up to orcs, that are usually were the mid game starts, considering that orcs are (in most fantasy settings) better equipped and far stronger. After that the player has to defeat the obligatory necromancer (don't get me wrong: I love wading through waves of undead, moreso if they are gruesome interesting or at least are different than bog-standard zombies); after these "standard" enemy stages, then the player is up into the high leagues, killing dragons, giants and abominations like they're nothing. So maybe have them on an island based on how far the x axis the island is?

Ahhhh, now I miss NWN and other good DnD games. Legends of the Sword Coast was awful.

Edited by TheSnarkyKnight
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Posted (edited)

What are you talking about?

Minecraft without creepers?!

 

Anyway, I was thinking about a mouse with spider legs. 1/5000 mouses spawn with 8 spider legs.

Just a little odd useless idea.

Edited by Diego il Catanico Jr
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15 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

What are you talking about?

Minecraft without creepers?!

 

Anyway, I was thinking about a mouse with spider legs. 1/5000 mouses spawn with 8 spider legs.

Just a little odd useless idea.

Weeeellll, what would that mouse do? What would be its function? His reason to be there? Woukd he be just an ambience mob?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

Weeeellll, what would that mouse do? What would be its function? His reason to be there? Woukd he be just an ambience mob?

 

16 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

Just a little odd useless idea.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Achievement for killing it?

 

Edited by Diego il Catanico Jr
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Posted (edited)

I have just skimmed the talk but I saw references to creatures taken out of a combat based fantasies. There's nothing wrong with that and Darmo is correct in that it is instantly recognizable. I want to challenge you to be a bit more creative though. What makes a creature dangerous? Creepers are dangerous because they are silent and you don't always see it coming. Skeletons are dangerous because they have range. Zombies are dangerous because of their numbers. The point I'm trying to make is far too often I see creatures in games that are just health pools that deal straight damage to your health. It's effective but variety is the spice of life.

Imagine for a second you are wondering through TFC 1 with all of it's rocks on the ground and then all of a sudden you take half a heart of damage, are slowed, nauseated, and poisoned and the nearby rock sprouts legs and retreats to a safe distance away. At that point you notice it's colored slightly different. You manage to survive the poison at half a heart and so you go after it. Your copper sword does little damage vs it's shell and it's close enough to finish you off. Dangerous not because it can hit hard but because you didn't see it coming and chased after it.

Again imagine a goblin type creature that when it sees you, shoots a blow dart that hits you for 1 heart and makes you character get very hungry. That goblinoid then retreats a short distance away and a second one is alerted and does the same thing from a different angle. Sure you could probably get to the first one and kill it but then you'd be starved, slowed, and likely to die before you get to the second one. They are dangerous because they lower your hunger, are ranged and use that to their advantage, and spread out around you so it's difficult to take them all out at once. 

Think of a cave. It's narrow and dark. A creature that attacks you in a cave may take advantage of this by snuffing out your light, leaving traps, blocking escape, or filling up the small area with poisonous gas when it dies. A creature with flight might live on cliff sides or high up in trees and attack by pushing you around to try and make you fall off. The creature might not even target you. A worm creature might be living in a pig and after x amount of time kill the pig creating two or three more that then go to infect the nearest pigs. Doesn't hurt you directly but still make living more difficult by killing your food supply. If you look at the mimic or rust monster from DnD they aren't that strong, it's the unique abilities and how they uses them that makes them dangerous. I would like creatures in TFC 2 to all be dangerous but for different reasons and require different tactics. I'd even be willing to code the behaviors. 

As to how each of these creatures look. I'd leave that up to the artists. I think how they look, their size, and animations should help people recognize what they do, where they can be found, help the creatures with their task, and be rememberable.

Edited by Stroam
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Posted (edited)

On 12/4/2017 at 3:46 AM, Stroam said:

I have just skimmed the talk but I saw references to creatures taken out of a combat based fantasies. There's nothing wrong with that and Darmo is correct in that it is instantly recognizable. I want to challenge you to be a bit more creative though. What makes a creature dangerous? Creepers are dangerous because they are silent and you don't always see it coming. Skeletons are dangerous because they have range. Zombies are dangerous because of their numbers. The point I'm trying to make is far too often I see creatures in games that are just health pools that deal straight damage to your health. It's effective but variety is the spice of life.

Imagine for a second you are wondering through TFC 1 with all of it's rocks on the ground and then all of a sudden you take half a heart of damage, are slowed, nauseated, and poisoned and the nearby rock sprouts legs and retreats to a safe distance away. At that point you notice it's colored slightly different. You manage to survive the poison at half a heart and so you go after it. Your copper sword does little damage vs it's shell and it's close enough to finish you off. Dangerous not because it can hit hard but because you didn't see it coming and chased after it.

Again imagine a goblin type creature that when it sees you, shoots a blow dart that hits you for 1 heart and makes you character get very hungry. That goblinoid then retreats a short distance away and a second one is alerted and does the same thing from a different angle. Sure you could probably get to the first one and kill it but then you'd be starved, slowed, and likely to die before you get to the second one. They are dangerous because they lower your hunger, are ranged and use that to their advantage, and spread out around you so it's difficult to take them all out at once. 

Think of a cave. It's narrow and dark. A creature that attacks you in a cave may take advantage of this by snuffing out your light, leaving traps, blocking escape, or filling up the small area with poisonous gas when it dies. A creature with flight might live on cliff sides or high up in trees and attack by pushing you around to try and make you fall off. The creature might not even target you. A worm creature might be living in a pig and after x amount of time kill the pig creating two or three more that then go to infect the nearest pigs. Doesn't hurt you directly but still make living more difficult by killing your food supply. If you look at the mimic or rust monster from DnD they aren't that strong, it's the unique abilities and how they uses them that makes them dangerous. I would like creatures in TFC 2 to all be dangerous but for different reasons and require different tactics. I'd even be willing to code the behaviors. 

As to how each of these creatures look. I'd leave that up to the artists. I think how they look, their size, and animations should help people recognize what they do, where they can be found, help the creatures with their task, and be rememberable.

While I do love the idea of having different mobs that are dangerous not because of sheer strenght but because of other characteristics, I think that these characteristics should be  different than just applying debuffs, especially in the case of your examples: a poisonous bug/critter is good and all, but it having a venom that powerful would be frustrating; same with the hunger removing goblin, imho that would just get frustrating after the tenth time you die because these guys pop up and, no matter how much you're prepared, armed or skilled, just kill you because they make you starve and slow you down to a crawl. Still an excellent idea though, it's just that I have a bad relation with this type of mob.

Since you seem to know DnD fairly well I'm gonna use an example "trickster" monster from there: cave fishers. Not particulary strong in melee but dangerous because of their other characteristics, ie their tendency to hook weak targets from far away , use paralizing webs and hunt in groups. Or maybe something like a rakshasa, that would use spells based on the situation.

Or maybe something like a griffin, having its nest on a mountain and patrolling the surrounding territory for prey... that prey being animals, thus depriving the player of food, and, if there are no more animals, the player.

Edited by TheSnarkyKnight
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On 4/15/2017 at 8:32 AM, TheSnarkyKnight said:

While I do love the idea of having different mobs that are dangerous not because of sheer strenght but because of other characteristics, I think that these characteristics should be  different than just applying debuffs.

...........................

Or maybe something like a griffin, having its nest on a mountain and patrolling the surrounding territory for prey... that prey being animals, thus depriving the player of food, and, if there are no more animals, the player.

Great examples. They highlight what I'm going for.

Any mob can be frustrating when you don't know the tricks for killing or avoiding them. The goblinoids that behave as I have described would be best countered with some cover and food. If you went into some tree cover you can use their spread to your advantage. Since mobs won't learn unlike players, you always have an advantage you can exploit over and over. Plus it's minecraft. Mobs get tripped up on the things that seem the trivial to us like pathing and line of sight. If you are they type of person who is a fan of brute force, like many hack n slash games, this may not be your cup of tea but slapping on some mods that give you speed, flying, powerful ranged attacks, defenses from everything, and you can trivialize any combat. 

One mob that I thought was pretty great is the Lacedon from lycanites mobs. This mob is really easy to kill in the right circumstances but had traits and abilities that made it scary. The traits are, the noise it makes is distinctive and fitting, It lives in water that is deep enough to drown in, when it hits you in the water you get s a sinking debuff, it's rare enough you aren't always expecting it, it swims faster than you(without assistance of boat or gear), found typically in groups of 3 at a time, if it chases you onto land it'll switch to a short range spray from it's mouth. It's weakness was not a lot of health, if it stay on land too long it starts to take damage, and no range in water. So you could defeat them with a bow, iron sword or better, a way to breath under water, hiding on land and then chasing it when it starts to take damage.

If rats/mice in TFC 2 occasionally stole food from unprotected storage containers or unpicked ripe crops that'd be funny.

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11 hours ago, Stroam said:

Great examples. They highlight what I'm going for.

Any mob can be frustrating when you don't know the tricks for killing or avoiding them. The goblinoids that behave as I have described would be best countered with some cover and food. If you went into some tree cover you can use their spread to your advantage. Since mobs won't learn unlike players, you always have an advantage you can exploit over and over. Plus it's minecraft. Mobs get tripped up on the things that seem the trivial to us like pathing and line of sight. If you are they type of person who is a fan of brute force, like many hack n slash games, this may not be your cup of tea but slapping on some mods that give you speed, flying, powerful ranged attacks, defenses from everything, and you can trivialize any combat. 

One mob that I thought was pretty great is the Lacedon from lycanites mobs. This mob is really easy to kill in the right circumstances but had traits and abilities that made it scary. The traits are, the noise it makes is distinctive and fitting, It lives in water that is deep enough to drown in, when it hits you in the water you get s a sinking debuff, it's rare enough you aren't always expecting it, it swims faster than you(without assistance of boat or gear), found typically in groups of 3 at a time, if it chases you onto land it'll switch to a short range spray from it's mouth. It's weakness was not a lot of health, if it stay on land too long it starts to take damage, and no range in water. So you could defeat them with a bow, iron sword or better, a way to breath under water, hiding on land and then chasing it when it starts to take damage.

If rats/mice in TFC 2 occasionally stole food from unprotected storage containers or unpicked ripe crops that'd be funny.

Thinking about it, dastardly mobs such as those goblins could be fun, even dying to them could be fun, as in !!FUN!!. There's quite nothing like discovering how many things want to kill you and how: will they paralyze you? Will they use ranged attacks? Will they cause a cave-in on your head? Well, there's only one way to find out...

Yes, I remember those guys from LM, they were quite the thing. My coastal town was quite hellish to live in at first, because these guys would just jump out at random from the sea, And when some items fell in the water it was always tense going to pick them up.

Maybe some monsters that work together and are rarely seen alone, like shriekers and violet fungi (still from Dnd)?

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To further expand upon the concept of territory-based monsters, I would suggest that you all take a gander at this mod: I think that they did an excellent job at introducing a deadly creature that actually flies off from its resting point (every once in a while) and starts hunting animals to eat. I think that this could be a good place to draw inspiration from and to see what is good and what is not. My main gripes with this mod's dragons are two:

  1. While it is true that they interact with the territoy around their roos, dragons rarely ever fly farther than a couple of chunks, and don't do much other than eating animals (this is my main gripe)
  2. Dragons can't be seen from far away, only from around 32-40 blocks away (not really relevant, but wanted to throw this out here anyway)

Overall I think that if Bioxx ever decides to implement monsters that actively patrol their territory, that territory should be quite big, otherwise I think it isn't worth the trouble. At least, that's what I think.

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