Terrafirmabeast

[Enzer 60]

Sure you can. If the license for the mod doesn't include allowing you to distribute it and you do it anyway, you're pirating.

Not to stir up shit, but where is TFC's license agreement? I thought it used to be under the download section, but after one of the more recent revisions to the pages I cannot seem to find it under Credits, the Wiki, the front page, downloads. It is not clearly stated under the forums from what I can see either. Isn't TFC under an open software license?

While yes, Honkfish should have asked for permissions first, I am kind of confused by the dev's team sudden waffling on mod packs. Bioxx has stated that he does not support mod packs of any kind.

"Closing this thread because the thread title suggests an illegal activity.

Also, I do not support modpacks of any kind. This includes technic.

As to MDub's installer, I am not against automated installers as long as the mod zips or not distributed along with it and the source is available for interested parties to look at. I have thought about doing something like that at some point anyways.

That said, MultiMC is extremely easy to use. There is no real NEED for a one click solution. Maybe some wants because a few folks can't be bothered to read 4 lines of instructions, but not a need for one."

http://terrafirmacra...license__st__20

What changed the developers' minds on this, if I might ask? I really do not see the benefit myself when they (FTB) do not properly credit mods (all mods listed on their site have "Some Info" and "Version X.xx" for all mods listed on their homepage and their promised donation links are still not set up when that would take, what, 30 min to an hour of html work at most? I just don't understand making a standpoint of not wanting TFC to be in any modpack, then suddenly jumping on the FTB train with no real reason given and then shooting down others who are attempting to spread TFC to those who refuse to use FTB (while I do not play Tekkit nor use Platform since most of the mods available through those services are not my cup of tea, FTB by no grounds has clean hands in not holding up the standard's their fanbase seems to warcry about as well as have been quite assholes to several modders themselves, such as MachineMuse). I mean at least Honkfish, though he did not ask for permissions, had the decency of including credit to Bioxx which is more than FTB has done for their own listed mods.

"As to MDub's installer, I am not against automated installers as long as the mod zips or not distributed along with it and the source is available for interested parties to look at. I have thought about doing something like that at some point anyways."

This is another thing I am confused about. Platform doesn't host any of the content, its more or less an installer wrap for Minecraft, you input a URL and it downloads and installs a mod. It is a bit of an iffy situation, but where is the line between mod pack with the mod zips distributed with the pack and an installer that downloads the pack from offsite? It sounds like Platform, for how I understand it works, would satisfy the conditions Bioxx set forth for an automated installer, in principle.

So yeah, I am just kind of confused. I see a lot of drama in the modding community over mod packs and it is always just interesting to read. Again, I don't mean to stir shit up or cause any wars, but I'd really like to know what is going on.

One finale question, I do have, and would honestly like to have this at least listed.

If someone approaches Bioxx and Dunk either in private or public and asks for permissions with an agreed upon usage license between said person and the developers of TFC, would they be allowed to form a pack for Platform as Platform follows the rules of "I am not against automated installers as long as the mod zips or not distributed along with it and the source is available for interested parties to look at". As, again, Platform only installs packs, does not host them, all packs would be stored separately off site. It also has its source code open for anyone to look at. Would the developers consider it under the following license agreements?

-Credit is clearly stated using the information found on the website's credit page. This information would be included under the Permissions & Licensing tab available on all Platform Packs.

-Credit mentioned a second time to at least Bioxx and Dunk under the Description's Tab as well as a direct link to TerraFirmaCraft's Web Page and a direct link to the TerraFirmaCraft Donate link, with a throw out to support the developers if you enjoyed the mod.

-Specifically stated instructions to not bother the developers of TerraFirmaCraft for issues that arise from using the pack and include specific instructions on how to contact the Pack's maintainer for any help the user base may need.

I believe that would be a fairly reasonable license between the developers and the pack maintainer. There is nothing wrong, at least I feel, with allowing a permission granted pack on Platform, the [/url=http://www.technicpack.net/modpack/details/big-dig-pack.57]most popular pack on Platform currently holds permissions with his mods, has a very well put together mod list using the Solder API, a decent change log, and actively promotes and asks users to support the developers in his description page as well as actively trouble shoots under the discussion tab.

So would the developers be OK with that? Not saying that I am asking to do this myself, I simply do not have the time right now, but with TFC coming to FTB in the future and the increasing popularity of Platform (there are already 3 ''unoffical" TFC packs), maybe setting the ground rules clear for what is and isn't allowed, how to go about asking for permissions, having stated license for TFC (again, am I being blind, I can't find it anymore) and looking into getting someone from this community to set up a Platform pack so that the developers have better control over an "official" Platform option for those who do not wish to use or associate with those behind FTB for whatever personal reason.

If putting the mod on FTB is even partially about getting the mod out to more people, why not play both fields?

[Bioxx 796]

Holy crap Enzer I've tried to read that 3 times, and I keep getting lost in all those words. I'll try to clear up some confusion as I am terrible at communication. I have been approached in the past by several folks wanting to create private packs for themselves and friends, and I'm fine with that. As a matter of fact, I'm now perfectly fine will nearly all packs as long as the code remains unchanged. The exception being Technic.

Honk is correct when he says that more people plating TFC is a good thing. However his attitude towards our wishes is the very heart and soul of the reason why I refuse to give permission for technic modpacks. Technic's beginnings have forever stained their reputation when it comes to the treatment of mod developers, and as Omicron pointed out, the sins of the past are clearly not finished being committed yet. We pour hundreds of hours of our lives into making mods for the community. The very LEAST that the community owes us for the fun that they have using our creations is to honor our wishes when it comes to redistribution.

To the issue of our license, I hate with a dire passion complicated legal licenses that try to cover every eventuality. As such, TFC has no specific license attached other than a simple "Feel free to use and abuse the code for personal reasons but do not modify with the intent to redistribute." Mods, which are a legal grey area, have almost no true legal grounds other than if someone where to try to make money off of our work, at which point there would be a whole complicated mess.

The entire issue is not about legality, its about civility.

[Enzer 60]

Fair enough and I can understand your reasoning for your decisions. I will admit that I am slightly disappointed in the decision. I can respect your wishes with not wanting to be associated with Technic (though they have been working hard to comply with developer wishes for some time now and, as far as I can tell, are in compliance with their current supported packs), they have been more driven on developing tools for the community to use with Platform being one of the biggest changes I can see coming to the field of personally modifying how you want to play minecraft and then sharing it with others. As for Technic, they seem to be trying to separate their name from Plaftorm the best they can. They understand that there are people who just wont work with them because of their past, but they are trying their best to provide a great tool to help the client/user side of the modding community and I really cannot find fault in them trying to help improve things. Again I would suggest looking at http://www.technicpack.net/modpack/details/big-dig-pack.57 as an example of the community using these tools right, but your opinions are your own.

As a hypothetical question, Platform allows you to set a pack as private, this is for distributing the pack to only whoever you give the pack url code to as opposed to anyone who sees the pack on the Platform directory. Are you OK with people using Platform to create private instances of TFC to be handed out for either a personal server or on a forum they are part of the community of? Would you still require people to get permissions ahead of time for that?

Sorry for all the questions, just generally curious is all. I think the usefulness of Platform is astounding regardless of who created it and I hope that Mojang is able to make a system half as useful for their Mod Repository/Server-Client mod installation system they've hinted about in the past and most recently discussed at the 2012 Minecon. Maybe then all this mod pack nonsense will finally die as it will be integrated in vanilla's systems.

[Bioxx 796]

Private packs are w/e as far as I'm concerned. If I don't know about it then I don't care. Out of sight, out of mind as they say.

Edit: Someone pointed out that tfc has been shipped with the CC license for some reason. This is incorrect and that file does not pertain to tfc in the slightest. Not to mention that CC doesn't even cover software. So anyone who thinks that file is some justification to whatever has the wrong idea.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I investigated what could be done about unauthorized mod packs with technic. I visited their IRC channel. Essentially, their stance was that I should take it up with whoever uploaded the pack without permission. I hardly consider that actively trying to improve their reputation. If they want to be popular with modders, they should respect us enough to take down packs that use our mods without permission.

Further, seeing as TFC doesn't have a CC, it's protected under the Berne Convention. Code and software is considered a literary work and is therefore protected by copyright by default. Bioxx holds all rights to use and distribution of the mod.

TFC not only meets the conditions to be considered a derivative work of minecraft, (and therefore copyright-able) mojang gives full rights of mods to the mod developers.

[MadDoctor5813 4]

Feel free to ignore this post and continue your discussion of mod pack legal issues, but is there any news on the FTB front? That was what the thread was started for, and I don't think there's been an answer before Honkfish jumped in and kind of changed the topic.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Feel free to ignore this post and continue your discussion of mod pack legal issues, but is there any news on the FTB front? That was what the thread was started for, and I don't think there's been an answer before Honkfish jumped in and kind of changed the topic.

It's coming

[Enzer 60]

I investigated what could be done about unauthorized mod packs with technic. I visited their IRC channel. Essentially, their stance was that I should take it up with whoever uploaded the pack without permission. I hardly consider that actively trying to improve their reputation. If they want to be popular with modders, they should respect us enough to take down packs that use our mods without permission.

Further, seeing as TFC doesn't have a CC, it's protected under the Berne Convention. Code and software is considered a literary work and is therefore protected by copyright by default. Bioxx holds all rights to use and distribution of the mod.

TFC not only meets the conditions to be considered a derivative work of minecraft, (and therefore copyright-able) mojang gives full rights of mods to the mod developers.

The issue is how Platform works. Platform provides, well, a platform for people to create mod packs, share them via their own hosting, and automatically do the installation for the end user. Platform, and to that extension Technic, have no legal means of policing data not stored on their own owned servers. While I understand that this may not be the most ideal thing, it is similar in ways to torrent software, some people use it for 'legal' intended purposes, others take advantage of it. The developers of torrent technology should not be held reliable for how their work is used, if someone wants to protect their copyright material, they have to do it themselves, there are legal tools for them to do so. Technic does not have the man power, let alone the means, to see if permissions were actually granted as in some cases permission is just granted in informal agreements in IRC rooms, there are also many other reasons why it would be impractical.

Technic is only reliable for the works of mod developers they themselves host and distribute such as the Tekkit Lite Pack. The staff responsible for maintaining open channels with developers, Ice Wolf I believe is his name, does a fairly good job. But again, that is up to personal opinion based on IRC conversations I have witnessed and I do not wish to get into an argument over matter of opinions.

The legal option for mod developers is to contact the hosting provider (by seeing what the mod pack's URL links to) and contacting them with a DMCA. I will not, knowing a bit about this subject, that a Counter Notification Letter can be easily written up in less than an hour to protect the rights that the mod pack maker has. (I will not go into discussion on that subject, far too off topic and I don't think anyone wants to hear about it anyway.. Let us just say that, legally, derivative work and software modification is a very nasty thing to deal with legally. The laws need to be redone completely as everyone's rights get stepped on with the current system).

Again, hopefully Mojang will come out with a similar first party system with their Mod Repository and all this nonsense will be finally be over with.

Anyway, I'll hush up now about this, sorry the derailment. Bioxx, thank you for answering my questions, and of course thank you to you and Dunk (and the rest who have helped) for making such an awesome mod.

[Gwtheyrn 70]

It's coming

That's... what... she said? Or something.

In all seriousness, though, good news.

[Omicron 62]

I expect that it will be hitting the FTB launcher as Build 76 on Minecraft 1.5, so I assume it's dependant on how quickly the team gets through the grueling process of converting all the textures.

[Gwtheyrn 70]

That's kind of what I was expecting too after Mojang released 1.5 to the masses, unwashed and otherwise.

[Menoch 335]

I have read this thread with interest, and in hopes that some sense could be made in regards to whoever wishes to do whatever they want with the TFC mod. It has been made clear by BIOXX that he does not condone the use of TFC in Technic, or on any other front without his consent, unless of course it is for private use, and I back him 1000%.

I would also like to point out that another key aspect that sets this mod apart from others is that this mod includes 5 pieces of music that are under Copyright Protection and are indeed filed with the United States Copyright office by yours truly. These pieces are not for distribution nor are they for use by any person or persons without written consent by the author and owner of said copyright.

With that in mind, there are only 2 people on this planet who are allowed to use this music as they wish. The first one is myself, the second and only other is Bioxx. Any other use or distribution whether free or by monetary gain without his consent or mine is a violation of the U.S. Federal Copyright Law. I am not up to par on Computer Coding and the copyright legality regarding such works, but I am most definitely familiar with Music Copyright, as I have been doing this for a better half of my life. This music is a part of a work. And whether it is distributed solely or in conjunction with this Mod without the consent of the author is illegal.

Bioxx has not asked for anything from any person in regards to the use of his Mod. He has poured himself into this creation for the FREE enjoyment of others and asks only that he is approached and asked for his permission. This is asking very little in regards to the time and devotion invested in this Mod by himself.

I also take great enjoyment in knowing that others enjoy my work (what little I have contributed to this mod), and want only that it is treated as this mod should be. I ask for nothing in return other than proper protocol be followed in regards to this Mod by ALL!

Just show a little respect!

Thank you,

Menoch

[Bioxx 796]

Thank you Menoch, I hadn't even considered that aspect to be honest. As to TFC on FTB, I'm not sure what the holdup is. Once 76 is out, I'll look into it.

[Luscarion 9]

I have read this thread with interest, and in hopes that some sense could be made in regards to whoever wishes to do whatever they want with the TFC mod. It has been made clear by BIOXX that he does not condone the use of TFC in Technic, or on any other front without his consent, unless of course it is for private use, and I back him 1000%.

I would also like to point out that another key aspect that sets this mod apart from others is that this mod includes 5 pieces of music that are under Copyright Protection and are indeed filed with the United States Copyright office by yours truly. These pieces are not for distribution nor are they for use by any person or persons without written consent by the author and owner of said copyright.

With that in mind, there are only 2 people on this planet who are allowed to use this music as they wish. The first one is myself, the second and only other is Bioxx. Any other use or distribution whether free or by monetary gain without his consent or mine is a violation of the U.S. Federal Copyright Law. I am not up to par on Computer Coding and the copyright legality regarding such works, but I am most definitely familiar with Music Copyright, as I have been doing this for a better half of my life. This music is a part of a work. And whether it is distributed solely or in conjunction with this Mod without the consent of the author is illegal.

Bioxx has not asked for anything from any person in regards to the use of his Mod. He has poured himself into this creation for the FREE enjoyment of others and asks only that he is approached and asked for his permission. This is asking very little in regards to the time and devotion invested in this Mod by himself.

I also take great enjoyment in knowing that others enjoy my work (what little I have contributed to this mod), and want only that it is treated as this mod should be. I ask for nothing in return other than proper protocol be followed in regards to this Mod by ALL!

Just show a little respect!

Thank you,

Menoch

So you're the creator of the music in TFC? Very nice work, sir!

[Olloth 0]

Private packs are w/e as far as I'm concerned. If I don't know about it then I don't care. Out of sight, out of mind as they say.

Edit: Someone pointed out that tfc has been shipped with the CC license for some reason. This is incorrect and that file does not pertain to tfc in the slightest. Not to mention that CC doesn't even cover software. So anyone who thinks that file is some justification to whatever has the wrong idea.

Are you deadrik?

If so that means you are the one who licensed it under CC https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/commit/c6d2a592d5fb6b6f80445c865f88ebad4a893ced#L14R1 for 11 months.

CC DOES apply to software, it's just not an intelligent choice for software.

Under github terms of service your public repo has to be viewable and forkable by others, as well. I don't know what this means exactly in legal terms, but you should REALLY never post something you don't intend to be a fully open source license on Github, it makes for a mess of things.

Also, this means that your music was posted under CC and also must be allowed to be viewable and forkable (and thus downloadable).

https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/tree/master/TFC%20Resources/sounds/tfc/music

[Aridhol 41]

Woah, Terrafirmaflamewar?

Can't we all just get along?

I am a huge open source guy, all day everyday, Linux is my best friend..

But of course I also respect people's work; I have no desire to steal work and recode one line and call it my own.. And I feel in this case, at least from my understanding, it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to downplay the excellent work the mod team has put into this project...

I've not got a lot to be in on this project, merely a server admin not a coder myself (well I know a little but I am not good..) but wanted to weigh in a little..

Hopefully this does not in any way tarnish the mods integrity, as this is one of the few truly original and interesting mods left in minecraft

[Gwtheyrn 70]

I don't think it's an argument about stealing. It's an argument about unauthorized distribution.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Are you deadrik?

If so that means you are the one who licensed it under CC https://github.com/D...d4a893ced#L14R1 for 11 months.

CC DOES apply to software, it's just not an intelligent choice for software.

Under github terms of service your public repo has to be viewable and forkable by others, as well. I don't know what this means exactly in legal terms, but you should REALLY never post something you don't intend to be a fully open source license on Github, it makes for a mess of things.

Also, this means that your music was posted under CC and also must be allowed to be viewable and forkable (and thus downloadable).

https://github.com/D...ounds/tfc/music

I think bioxx said that wasn't TFC's liscence and just got slipped in by mistake..?

[Olloth 0]

I think bioxx said that wasn't TFC's liscence and just got slipped in by mistake..?

It's a big mistake to have it as the license for 11 months, and he can't undo the fact that all that stuff was released under that license now and subject to the terms of it.

Also, he should also close his source if he doesn't intend to have an open source license. Currently he has no license but it has to be allowed to be forked so it's at odds with the idea of Github. Otherwise, he should choose a suitable open source license which most allow for open distribution in addition to open source.

All git clones are git repos themselves like they are on github, it's very easy to host it for just you and him if he wants to do that someplace.

Indeed, he is still distributing the license in the current download and making an agreement under that license with everyone who downloads it.

Being that also appears to be http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode share-alike, that means that http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

Share Alike — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.

Which means he needs permission from all contributors to the github (or removing non-responders and people who do not giver permission) in order to change the license at all.

[Olloth 0]

It appears that your only other contributor besides Bioxx/Dunk was under no license but you may wish to ask him anyway just in case.

And for the record I don't mind either way if you decide to go closed or open but I am trying to just state the facts. I would love a truly open source license but I'm trying to help either way. The license has to be fixed, "Crap or get off the pot" as they say.

[Aridhol 41]

I don't think it's an argument about stealing. It's an argument about unauthorized distribution.

I hate to be that guy... but isn't unauthorized distribution (like piracy?) just a fancy way of saying 'stealing' lol

[Olloth 0]

I hate to be that guy... but isn't unauthorized distribution (like piracy?) just a fancy way of saying 'stealing' lol

That's not an argument for here but theft and copyright infringement are typically considered two different beasts.

[Olloth 0]

https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/license.txt

Thanks Bioxx/deadrik, the whole community appreciates open source.

[Enzer 60]

Yeah, gotta say that is pretty awesome.

_{The TFC devs are some of my favorite in the community for a reason.}

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Yeah, gotta say that is pretty awesome.

_{The TFC devs are some of my favorite in the community for a reason.}

o3o hmm?