Some observations of how people play

[Shiphty 66]

I will preface my comments with the statement that I absolutely love this mod and appreciate the work that Bioxx, Dunk, and Kitty (and anyone else involved) have done, the mod is simply brilliant.  I also understand that it is a work in progress, I am led to believe that the finished product will look radically different than the current mod.

 

I also think it bears repeating that there isn't a "correct" way to play with this mod just as there isn't a "correct" way to play minecraft.  Minecraft itself is a sandbox game, it's very open.  If you want to make it your personal goal to fill your world with ten cubit towers of smooth stone... no one can say you're wrong for doing so.  In these conversations it seems that there is a tendency for two groups to form battle lines, both sides insisting that their style of play is the correct one.  Both groups have very definite OPINIONS (that is what they are) about how the game should be played and therefore how the game should function.

 

I have some opinions.  And now I will share them.

 

I like closure.  I like to fight back the wild and the evil and gain ground.  I do not like having my work undone so I can repeatedly fix it or struggle to maintain it.  I don't care for the idea that torches go out.  Yes, I know this pushes the envelope of believability but there are evil creatures which have the ability to suddenly appear.  As long as these creatures are able to suddenly materialize, I want some technique, some thing I can build, which will permanently wall off an area from them.  

 

If creatures couldn't suddenly appear anywhere at random but had to come from outside your structures I wouldn't care so much about torches going out.  I find the spawn protection generated by my presence quite insufficient for my needs.  I sometimes have to leave my plantation for a year or more and it IS a plantation which spans more than a five by five chunk.  Further, I do not believe the spawn protection is working properly, I've spent days laboring at my tree farm only to leave at nightfall to sleep and return the next day.  After days of this activity, on my way home one night, I notice a creature spawn where I had been standing moments before.  I will continue to play with infinite torches enabled.

 

I will say that I wouldn't mind if creatures would attempt to storm your complex from without.  I wouldn't mind growing hostility as time wears on.  But the player, in my not so humble opinion, should be able to out-think the creatures and come up with various solutions.

 

Speaking of various solutions; I do not care for the new cave-in mechanic.  I find it a strong-arm approach.  I did not update to 79.9 because it included a change which removed the player's ability to smooth stone which has more than two blocks over it.  The development team, in this case, is saying "here is the ONE way which you must approach the issue of mining," rather than saying "here is a problem and here are some tools, figure it out."  I don't like the approach and I don't care for its rippling affect on other parts of the game.

 

I definitely find supports useful.  I use them.  I also chisel smooth stone.  I find the two approaches complement one another.  There isn't ONE right way to mine or tunnel. Realistically (or should I say believably?) different cultures have approached tunneling in different ways.  (One really awesome way the ancients used to tunnel through solid rock was to light a fire next to it, then throw water on it and with the sudden cooling some of the rock would shatter and fall away.)  There are networks of tunnels throughout Europe which were dug thousands of years ago, most of these tunnels are only wide and high enough for a person to pass, they use no supports of any kind.  2x1 tunnels are not a new invention.

 

As things stand, I must use the prospector's pick within a relatively short range of the ore to find the vein.  This means I must tunnel, not just to get to the ore, but simply tunnel to prospect.  Ore tends, in my experience, to be a bit on the difficult to find end of things.  All this means I'm going to be spending huge chunks of time mining through rock and many of these tunnels will never see any further use.  Mining out enough space to employ supports, aside from the resources required for the supports, means at minimum, I will be mining three times as much stone per cubit (why don't we use that term when measuring in minecraft?  It just seems to make sense; cube-it. Anyway...) I move forward.  I don't believe this adds to my game play at all.

 

I liked the old mechanic.  I had to worry about cave-ins but if I was careful and smart I wouldn't see them much.

 

Currently there is the option to turn down the frequency of cave-ins and I've employed it, but I haven't been able to replicate the old mechanic.

 

Back to styles of play; I like to immerse myself in the game and see my character as a dwarven miner.  In my view (and I don't believe I'm alone here) dwarves have the knack and tendency to carve their tunnels from the living rock and do not rely solely (or heavily) upon wooden supports.  I incorporate this in my mining and tunneling and underground construction.  I bring a chisel and hammer with me whenever I'm underground.  I wish I had a picture of my old quarry.  It was "just" a quarry but I made it beautiful with my chisel and you couldn't find a single ugly old wooden support anywhere in it.  I worked on a subterranean city in the same direction.  I used wooden supports during construction but the final product was all stone.

 

in my current save I have a cassiterite mine.  I've used wooden supports.  I found the center of the vein and set a support in each of the cardinal directions of the compass.  The supported area works out to be a big plus sign.  As I was mining downward I used my chisel to smooth the corners incrementally until the safe area was completely square.  To reiterate; I think these two techniques complement one another.

 

I honestly don't know what the big deal is, you cannot make a chisel until you are at the tech level to make a saw (and therefore supports) and chisels used in this way go faster than saws do in making supports.

 

These are the two major "intended" game mechanics which I work around or disable.

[Maga 99]

Holy smokes, much more eloquent and tactful than others have said this (myself included) +1 on everything you just said.

 

Makes me sad that it'll get glossed over

[Shiphty 66]

I actually forgot to comment on a few things.

 

I like the hunger mechanic and the way food works.  I like the way that food rots over time.  I refuse to store my food in skyscrapers as an exploit to the temperature reduction at altitudes, that would not be conducive, for me, to an immersive game play.  I have a root cellar.  Fortunately, the average temperature where I settled is 6 degrees.

 

I didn't know that nothing happens when you don't eat because I have kept my character fed from the first day.  It is certainly a challenge at first but it isn't nearly as difficult as some folks make it out to be.  Also, the idea of just not eating... just feels lame in a survival game.  I think, despite my caveat about there being no "wrong" way to play, I'm secretly and subconsciously judging people who don't eat because they can get away with it.

 

That said; I don't think that there needs to be "harsher" penalties for not eating.  Being reduced to fifty health is enough.  There are always going to be those folks who don't care for immersion but will simply play the rules and win points or something.  There will always be folks who exploit loopholes.  If you make rules to make sure that doesn't happen, the folks who don't exploit those rules will end up getting stepped on in the process.

 

I don't like the idea that people commit suicide as a means of recovering their nutrition levels and health, it doesn't make sense.  But if you "fix" that issue so they can't do it, you punish the "honest" player who is inevitably going to die and suffer harsher consequences.

[Kittychanley 1,002]

I didn't know that nothing happens when you don't eat because I have kept my character fed from the first day.  It is certainly a challenge at first but it isn't nearly as difficult as some folks make it out to be.  Also, the idea of just not eating... just feels lame in a survival game.  I think, despite my caveat about there being no "wrong" way to play, I'm secretly and subconsciously judging people who don't eat because they can get away with it.

 

That said; I don't think that there needs to be "harsher" penalties for not eating.  Being reduced to fifty health is enough.  There are always going to be those folks who don't care for immersion but will simply play the rules and win points or something.  There will always be folks who exploit loopholes.  If you make rules to make sure that doesn't happen, the folks who don't exploit those rules will end up getting stepped on in the process.

 

I don't like the idea that people commit suicide as a means of recovering their nutrition levels and health, it doesn't make sense.  But if you "fix" that issue so they can't do it, you punish the "honest" player who is inevitably going to die and suffer harsher consequences.

 

I have made a change for the next version regarding hunger penalties solely because there was enough complaining about it on the forums. Just how when the thirst bar reaches less than 25% a slowness debuff is applied to players (which makes sense since sprinting reduces thirst), in the next build having a hunger bar less than 25% will result in a mining fatigue and weakness debuff (based on the idea that using tools depletes hunger faster). Hopefully this won't step too much on those who don't exploit the rules, and the slightly annoying potion particle effects in your face will be a nice reminder that it's time to eat. The debuffs applied for hunger don't go quite as far for those of thirst (0% thirst disables all sprinting). Regardless of if your hunger is at 24%, or at 0%, it will simply be a Mining Fatigue II and Weakness II potion effect, which in my opinion was enough to be slightly annoying, but something that doesn't completely halt gameplay until you either die or eat. The faster nutrition drain for 0% hunger is still in place as well.

 

There are no plans to "fix" the suicide issue.

[Shiphty 66]

I have made a change for the next version regarding hunger penalties solely because there was enough complaining about it on the forums. Just how when the thirst bar reaches less than 25% a slowness debuff is applied to players (which makes sense since sprinting reduces thirst), in the next build having a hunger bar less than 25% will result in a mining fatigue and weakness debuff (based on the idea that using tools depletes hunger faster). Hopefully this won't step too much on those who don't exploit the rules, and the slightly annoying potion particle effects in your face will be a nice reminder that it's time to eat. The debuffs applied for hunger don't go quite as far for those of thirst (0% thirst disables all sprinting). Regardless of if your hunger is at 24%, or at 0%, it will simply be a Mining Fatigue II and Weakness II potion effect, which in my opinion was enough to be slightly annoying, but something that doesn't completely halt gameplay until you either die or eat. The faster nutrition drain for 0% hunger is still in place as well.

 

There are no plans to "fix" the suicide issue.

 

For what it's worth, this adjustment to the hunger issue has my complete approval.  Ya know, because everyone was on the edge of their seat.

[Thrainn 2]

(...)

I agree completely, especially with the torch part! I really hope, the devs will take the time to read through this post as I did.I'd like to repeat this sentence: "I like to fight back the wild and the evil and gain ground."I have absolutely no problem with torches burning out, for the sake of believability, but we really should have some replacement means to actively prevent 'the wild' from popping out of thin air in, let's call it "conquered" areas, including caves. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I really don't care about 'conquering' areas I often visit again and again from scratch, and the spawn protection system really doesn't help much on this front, like Shiphty said.

[Maga 99]

Seeing as how his both of his posts have been read, and the parts dealing with cave-ins and torch burnout were specifically not responded to, I'm going to suggest that they probably won't read it the way you did.

 

We get to wait 6-12 months for the lanterns... IF (and that's a big if) and when they come there's no reason currently to believe they will be permanent. Unless you're Emris and can whip up addons on the fly like a wizard you are stuck mucking about in configs or enduring the grind at the expense of creativity.

[Shiphty 66]

Hrm.

 

Folks, may I suggest that we not disparage, even by inference, the handful of individuals who labor over this enjoyable pastime for us?  None of us had to buy TFCraft in order to play it.  The developers are, I am certain, doing their best to make a game they believe is worth playing.  They will make choices.  You will approve of some of these choices.  Other choices... not so much.

 

This forum is, among other things, a means by which they are able to pick our brains to whatever degree they wish, and we are, in a civil and good-spirited manner, able to tell them what we like and what we dislike about various aspects of the game as well as suggest ideas they may or may not have thought of.

 

There may come a time when Bioxx, Dunk, and Kitty make one or more development choices which render the game completely unenjoyable to any number of us.  That is a definite possibility as we have a broad spectrum of tastes and play-styles.  But they don't owe us anything.  If the time comes that you don't like the direction the game is taking, and you've politely, respectfully, and good-naturedly spoken your opinion, you may continue to play the version before the change was made, you may play the game as it is made and accept the changes, or you may depart to play some other game.

 

Can we please try not to see each other as enemies or glower and grumble?

 

Also... this post isn't actually about what you don't like about various changes, it's actually about how you play.  These two subjects intertwine and some explanation may be warranted but let us not harp on a tired point if we can avoid it.

[Terex 108]

I have made a change for the next version regarding hunger penalties solely because there was enough complaining about it on the forums. Just how when the thirst bar reaches less than 25% a slowness debuff is applied to players (which makes sense since sprinting reduces thirst), in the next build having a hunger bar less than 25% will result in a mining fatigue and weakness debuff (based on the idea that using tools depletes hunger faster). Hopefully this won't step too much on those who don't exploit the rules, and the slightly annoying potion particle effects in your face will be a nice reminder that it's time to eat. The debuffs applied for hunger don't go quite as far for those of thirst (0% thirst disables all sprinting). Regardless of if your hunger is at 24%, or at 0%, it will simply be a Mining Fatigue II and Weakness II potion effect, which in my opinion was enough to be slightly annoying, but something that doesn't completely halt gameplay until you either die or eat. The faster nutrition drain for 0% hunger is still in place as well.

 

There are no plans to "fix" the suicide issue.

 

Sometimes there are new game mechanics in TFC that the community (or rather I, speaking for myself) do not like. But if we all remain decent enough, creative workarounds such as one given above by Kitty are presented, and do not detract from the dev's vision of what TFC should be about. I will simply say, thank you Kitty and others for your goodwill and effort.

[Thrainn 2]

Well spoken, Shiphty, let's keep reason here.

Seeing as how his both of his posts have been read, and the parts dealing with cave-ins and torch burnout were specifically not responded to, I'm going to suggest that they probably won't read it the way you did.-Removed again. User has had forum privileges removed for 24 hours.-We get to wait 6-12 months for the lanterns... IF (and that's a big if) and when they come there's no reason currently to believe they will be permanent. Unless you're Emris and can whip up addons on the fly like a wizard you are stuck mucking about in configs or enduring the grind at the expense of creativity.

I'd rather not know which nasty hostility Kitty removed here that even caused her to ban you. But back to topic: I know you are a fancy builder, and I respect that, but actually I didn't talk about lanterns or other light emitting replacements for the perma-torches, but rather another device or something, crafted with gemstones if you like, that prevents nasty monster spawns. I don't care if that thing emits light or not, as long as it holds the damn monsters at bay! As for believability in this case: if we must have sickly green walking dynamite and moving corpses, I really won't mind some magical device which repells them.

[Sp00k 0]

They basically support up to 4 blocks away only, and the block height above the beam and up to 2 levels below.

And all those beams fall the heck apart if you get any minor cave in at a distance.

[NikkyD 34]

(tl;dr)

 

just another opinion:

 

I play completely on peaceful! Why ? I enjoy the mod as a means of relaxation and i dont want to light the entire world just so that the fantasy monsters dont spawn. I'd rather enjoy a quiet night looking over my homestead, gives me more joy than moaning zombies at night.

 

When i feel like it, i take long boat travels, but sometimes i just teleport around because i am too annoyed to spend 3 minutes pressing the W key... again, i enjoy it more this way.

 

All the talk about "thats cheat" etc, its a sandbox game, not a competition!

 

 

However some things do make me angry and thats when i have to do stuff that i dont want to do but its the only thing to keep my bloodlevel down. Lights! Pumpkins here and there because i want to see stuff and relighting torches all the time is just pure annoyance and imho makes no sense at all. Its a dev decision and thats ok, my user decision is to bypass it, period.

 

Being a dev myself i know how important user feedback is and imho it's not helping if a user is sugarcoating their problems with the game just to not attract the wrath of the developer. Instead, a clean and polite "i strongly dislike this feature" feedback tells the developer how someone and maybe even some more feel about it. Ofc there are bad devs who just like to play god "eat this (feature) and stfu!!!" but those games/mods usually die fast so i think we are safe.

 

 

tl;dr;

Give feedback, no matter what, but do it politely

[CHeuberger 9]

... However some things do make me angry and thats when i have to do stuff that i dont want to do but its the only thing to keep my bloodlevel down. Lights! Pumpkins here and there because i want to see stuff and relighting torches all the time is just pure annoyance and imho makes no sense at all. Its a dev decision and thats ok, my user decision is to bypass it, period. ...

You can change the burnout time of torches in the configuration file TFCOptions.cfg.Just set

torchBurnTime

to 0 (zero)...(I never tried that since I like the torches burning out)

[NikkyD 34]

I would rather prefer something like... for as long as i enter the chunk with the torches at least once a day, the torches should auto-relight. This way, if i spend a month at home i never have to bother about the lights but if i come back from a long journey the house would be all dark... that would be a good feel, imho