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Bioxx

Kingdoms Brainstorming

899 posts in this topic

I would say, "No" to the idea of an in-game readable list of how cities relate to each other because it removes the possibility of deception on the part of players. If the server is PvP, being able to lie to someone without them knowing it's a lie until it's too late is something you would want.

Well, maybe turn them off or something in that specific server. If everybody is out to get you, why would you need the stone, in a civilized server, people will use it. Nobody follows rules in an anarchy.

It may be a large decision to choose whether the server the server simply has allows other players to be hit or the server is PVP, I don't see that being a problem though.

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I would say, "No" to the idea of an in-game readable list of how cities relate to each other because it removes the possibility of deception on the part of players. If the server is PvP, being able to lie to someone without them knowing it's a lie until it's too late is something you would want.

Just make the information citizen only? I don't see why a non citizen should be allowed to access a Home Stone they don't belong to to begin with. It should just read as [Town's Name] Home Stone if a non citizen interacts with it. Otherwise you'd still just have the problem of people figuring out what is going on by in game chat unless each town has their own chat channels.

From a different point of view, for political infiltration, information gathering could be an option. Kill a citizen and take their Town Tome and you could have a chance to garner one random bit of information (like maybe you get the a few of the town's rules, or maybe a few people on a noble's list, or some information on town status, all randomized and it destroys the tome. What more, if the Tome is not up to date, neither would be the information!) the downside of doing this is that that town would soon know you just killed someone for their Tome, so you would have to be creative about it. Another option would be stealing a Tome left behind in a chest.

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Furthermore, as to implementing "laws" -- what sort of laws are we talking about here? And how would you create a mechanic that would enforce them?

There is no point in implementing a system that allows the "ruler" of a "town" to create "laws" if there is no mechanic to enforce them. You might as well wave your hands in the air, it'd do about the same amount of good.

Something that lets you see the rules of the town would be good -- and we already have that: signs. Maybe we need a special kind of sign that can only be placed by the owner of a town, and is distinguishable from the normal sign, so that one can tell it's "legit", but there's no need to create a totally new functionality when you can just adapt an already existing one.

Furthermore, how would you enforce these laws? Particularly for more esoteric things like, "Houses can only be made out of basalt brick". How do you create a mechanic to evaluate that law? And how do you create something to enforce it?

A lot of these suggestions I see being made have no concept or appreciation of what computers can do, or how computers are made to do the things they do. For every general case of law you would need dozens upon dozens of variations, and many laws would have special-case parameters, leading to tens of thousands of possible permutations that would have to be taken into account. That is a lot of programming. And while it's not the most complicated thing in the world, it's not very straight-forward.

Again, you don't need some sort of mechanic for laws. A simple sign that can only be placed by the town's owner that can be used to display laws would suffice. Things like, "No cobble or dirt houses" or "keep all roads 3 blocks wide". Anyone who violates a law could, under the system I proposed, simply be removed from the list of "citizens" of the town and then jailed for violating the law. There's no need to needlessly complicate things when the players themselves can take care of things.

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Minecraft is, at its heart, a sandbox game. Sandbox games rely on the fact that there are extremely few rules and restricting mechanics. At it's heart, Minecraft's "rules" could be simply construed as the laws of physics for a world. Everything else that happens in the world, including how players interact with each other, is a natural, organic response to the very basic, limited ruleset that is the laws of physics.

What makes sandbox games so good is the freedom they allow. What makes Minecraft good is that you can do pretty much anything you want, within the limits of the game's physics. Any addition to the game, such as block protection in the form of cities, or law enforcement in the form of a jailing mechanism, needs to be kept as rules light and minimally invasive as possible. The barest minimum of functionality, and no more. Instead of creating a complicated system that allows the implementation of laws in a city you instead create a system that allows players to enforce laws on their own. The ways of being human are bounded, but infinite. Humans can create an infinite number of laws, and in a greater nature of complexity, than any preprogrammed system can create. While you might think a hard-coded mechanic for laws is a good idea, what you're really doing is limiting the freedom of the players by confining them to a preset idea of what laws should be.

Under an open system, where, for example, an area can be designated as a jail, with a way to confine people to the jail so that they cannot leave unless another person not in the jail gets out, you can have a wide variety of laws in a complexity that allows for solutions to problems that cannot be foreseen until they arise. That's the difference between humans and computers. A computer can only do what it is told, and cannot adapt to something new. A human being, or a group of human beings, can create unforeseen, innovative responses to situations that occur without prior warning.

By implementing a bare-bones systems that allows the enforcement of laws without confining those laws to a preset, restricted, set of ideas you are allowing the players more freedom to adapt and to be creative, which is what sandbox games are all about in the first place.

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Furthermore, as to implementing "laws" -- what sort of laws are we talking about here? And how would you create a mechanic that would enforce them?

There is no point in implementing a system that allows the "ruler" of a "town" to create "laws" if there is no mechanic to enforce them. You might as well wave your hands in the air, it'd do about the same amount of good.

Something that lets you see the rules of the town would be good -- and we already have that: signs. Maybe we need a special kind of sign that can only be placed by the owner of a town, and is distinguishable from the normal sign, so that one can tell it's "legit", but there's no need to create a totally new functionality when you can just adapt an already existing one.

Furthermore, how would you enforce these laws? Particularly for more esoteric things like, "Houses can only be made out of basalt brick". How do you create a mechanic to evaluate that law? And how do you create something to enforce it?

A lot of these suggestions I see being made have no concept or appreciation of what computers can do, or how computers are made to do the things they do. For every general case of law you would need dozens upon dozens of variations, and many laws would have special-case parameters, leading to tens of thousands of possible permutations that would have to be taken into account. That is a lot of programming. And while it's not the most complicated thing in the world, it's not very straight-forward.

Again, you don't need some sort of mechanic for laws. A simple sign that can only be placed by the town's owner that can be used to display laws would suffice. Things like, "No cobble or dirt houses" or "keep all roads 3 blocks wide". Anyone who violates a law could, under the system I proposed, simply be removed from the list of "citizens" of the town and then jailed for violating the law. There's no need to needlessly complicate things when the players themselves can take care of things.

I don't think anyone was implying physical implications for laws.

As an example, for towns on my server, the person who starts a town decides on building zones, architecture theme and material them. Players who decide that they want to build in that town have to abide by building codes, if they fail to than the town owner has several options. First option on first offense is to talk with the offending user and tell them what is wrong with their building, second offense the town owner is allowed to remove the offending building if they refuse to fix it, third offense the town owner is allowed to kick the person out of his town with enforcement by the server moderators. This is to keep arguments down and for towns to look nice and feel right. Again, signs to writing rules is a bad option for 1) Limited space, 2) Each letter on a sign is an individual entity and they have unlimited draw range, large billboards cause entity lag (which is why optifine has an option to smartly cut off letters on a sign after so many blocks depending on how many signs are in a chunk), 3) Billboards are ugly and the Home Stone is designed to store information already.

Having laws stored somewhere allows for the owner of a town to set up how he wants his town run and if it is all in a place everyone knows where them to be, offending users cannot just go "well, I didn't know". Also, in my above example on how towns are run on my server currently, the fact that a town owner has to rely on moderators to enforce their town's laws right now is bad, having the Home Stone allow them to fine an offending player, remove property rights or remove citizenship removes the need for moderators to meddle in players actions.

For writing laws it doesn't have to be a set of parameters a town owner has to select from, it could be a screen where he can just type out words, like how the 1.3 writable books work.

Honestly, if the Home Stone has to be there to define a towns controlled area, I would say make it as useful to all citizens as possible, an information hot spot seems a reasonable thing to do.

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Any formal, hard-coded system for declaring/initiating war between two parties should not be implemented. War should be purely a social construct. There is no need to add a mechanic for something that can be accomplished simply by player consensus.

I would disagree for the simple reason that, while war should be a purely social construct, if any block protection which would be effective against griefers is implemented, it would be totally unfeasible.

Please explain exactly what the point of this "War" mechanic would be, and why it is necessary? It seems to me that it's an unneeded addition.

​

As I explained above, if block protection is strong enough to prevent griefing, then it inherently prevents war (since war is effectively organised griefing against one another). If it is not good enough to stop griefing, then it is not worth having block protection at all.

I saw what you said earlier about server op's who want block protection and how if an admin enables it, he obviously doesn't want blocks broken. This is a vast oversimplification. Firstly, you certainly don't speak for all server op's, secondly, the desire to prevent mindless, vandalism style, undirected block breaking and coordinated, politically orientated block breaking are two different things.

The war mechanic is necessary for another reason: The dispersion of players through time zones. If a town didn't have to declare war on another town, they could simply walk in and destroy it when all (or most) of the players are offline. This could be interpreted as an "ambush", but it really isn't much good for gameplay, as the attack will be easy for the attackers and upsetting for the victims. Combine this with the fact that, unlike IRL, players don't have a constant presence on the forum, so even if the attack was uncovered, nothing could be done about it. If the war mechanic was put in place, it would allow the defenders to prepare a defence or even pre-emptively attack.

The war system does not introduce rigidity, nor does it prevent players using their creativity while playing. For example, what you said about trading to the enemy, what about the war mechanic stops you doing that exactly ? It's not like you can't enter an enemy town, you may face hostility from the residents, but that isn't unusual for two nations at war. The politics of the server will still be just as complex with a GUI (which as danny pointed out, is necessary for larger servers where there may be many factions) as it only explains your own political relations with other towns (information which is available already, presuming you have someone recording it). It is also believable and realistic. Can you seriously tell me that factions in the past would not keep a record of the political relations with other nations ?

The only thing the war system does is attempt to level a playing field which is set off kilter by issues caused by the fact that this game is a game. In a constantly populated server, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, this is simply not feasible, so we as players need help.

I would say, "No" to the idea of an in-game readable list of how cities relate to each other because it removes the possibility of deception on the part of players. If the server is PvP, being able to lie to someone without them knowing it's a lie until it's too late is something you would want.

How would you not be able to lie ?

It's not like the GUI would list all members of that faction. If you approached someone and they didn't know what faction you belonged to, how would they know ?

Alternatively, if they did find out your faction, the more sensible players who kept track of server politics would know anyway. The GUI doesn't tell you anything new, it just makes it easier to find.

Yes, it does pander to peoples laziness. In the same way that wheelbarrows IRL pander to peoples laziness. It makes a job easier. I don't see you complaining that hauling rocks isn't hard and tedious enough .....

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I don't think anyone was implying physical implications for laws.

As an example, for towns on my server, the person who starts a town decides on building zones, architecture theme and material them. Players who decide that they want to build in that town have to abide by building codes, if they fail to than the town owner has several options. First option on first offense is to talk with the offending user and tell them what is wrong with their building, second offense the town owner is allowed to remove the offending building if they refuse to fix it, third offense the town owner is allowed to kick the person out of his town with enforcement by the server moderators. This is to keep arguments down and for towns to look nice and feel right. Again, signs to writing rules is a bad option for 1) Limited space, 2) Each letter on a sign is an individual entity and they have unlimited draw range, large billboards cause entity lag (which is why optifine has an option to smartly cut off letters on a sign after so many blocks depending on how many signs are in a chunk), 3) Billboards are ugly and the Home Stone is designed to store information already.

Having laws stored somewhere allows for the owner of a town to set up how he wants his town run and if it is all in a place everyone knows where them to be, offending users cannot just go "well, I didn't know". Also, in my above example on how towns are run on my server currently, the fact that a town owner has to rely on moderators to enforce their town's laws right now is bad, having the Home Stone allow them to fine an offending player, remove property rights or remove citizenship removes the need for moderators to meddle in players actions.

For writing laws it doesn't have to be a set of parameters a town owner has to select from, it could be a screen where he can just type out words, like how the 1.3 writable books work.

Honestly, if the Home Stone has to be there to define a towns controlled area, I would say make it as useful to all citizens as possible, an information hot spot seems a reasonable thing to do.

You are failing to understand this: It is impossible to create a computer system that can deal with all possibilities. Only human beings are capable of dealing with the new. You are limiting the freedom of the players by having the computer attempt to enforce a predefined set of laws, not to mention the degree of difficulty in creating the system that defines and creates the laws.

Nothing anyone has said about the idea of laws has shown a reason for there to be a specific mechanic hard-coded for the creation and enforcement of laws. That is something the players are able to do themselves, and to a much greater ability and flexibility than any computer system can do.

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As far as laws are concerned, they should be player created and player enforced. How would you eforce them ? Easily.

For example, Theft is a crime. As punishment you send the user to a prison they can't escape from for x amount of time. Not only can they not play for that time, people will know they are in prison and their reputation as players will be harmed. (largely similar to IRL prison actually :P)

To be fair, it would be easier on my ideal server to administer punishment because certain kinds of death would be regarded as permanent character death (meaning all your possessions are lost) so death would be an actual, viable punishment.

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You are failing to understand this: It is impossible to create a computer system that can deal with all possibilities. Only human beings are capable of dealing with the new. You are limiting the freedom of the players by having the computer attempt to enforce a predefined set of laws, not to mention the degree of difficulty in creating the system that defines and creates the laws.

Nothing anyone has said about the idea of laws has shown a reason for there to be a specific mechanic hard-coded for the creation and enforcement of laws. That is something the players are able to do themselves, and to a much greater ability and flexibility than any computer system can do.

Wait wait wait wait, what?

At the beginning of my post I specifically said that computer controlled law enforcement wasn't being asked for, I know that doing so would be nigh impossible.

All I said was that there is still a need for laws to be recorded and the Home Stone provides that and since the Home Stone is already going to be a thing, why make the storage of a list of laws outside of the home stone since according to the OP, it would store information on the town. You give the town owner a screen where he can type in a list of laws. All that would be is words, like what I am typing now, not game play parameters, that would be just stupid. I did say that a way the Home Stone could be used to enforce laws is through the owner of the Town. The town's owner decides the sale of property in his town and who is a citizen, you break his laws, he maybe imprisons you in a designated jail, you act up again he takes away your land using the Home Stone, you doing something really stupid after that, he revokes your citizenship. That would all be player controlled, I never said it would be automated. The Home Stone would just provide a means to felicitate those actions without the need of typing chat commands which Bioxx has said is one of the reasons for the Home Stone in the OP.

Right now there is no way to actually enforce anything without getting moderators involved. Giving town owners the right to revoke land, assign to jail, invoke monetary fines, or revoke citizenship is a way to enforce laws and keeps moderators out of player game play.

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I would disagree for the simple reason that, while war should be a purely social construct, if any block protection which would be effective against griefers is implemented, it would be totally unfeasible.

​

Untrue. Read the post I wrote about the system I proposed. It's entirely possible to create a form of block protection that can be bypassed by a determined individual with a great deal of time, or by a determined group of individuals by pooling their time and resources, while still stopping the vast majority of griefers, because your average griefer just wants to break something, not devote their time to breaking things.

As I explained above, if block protection is strong enough to prevent griefing, then it inherently prevents war (since war is effectively organised griefing against one another). If it is not good enough to stop griefing, then it is not worth having block protection at all.

I saw what you said earlier about server op's who want block protection and how if an admin enables it, he obviously doesn't want blocks broken. This is a vast oversimplification. Firstly, you certainly don't speak for all server op's, secondly, the desire to prevent mindless, vandalism style, undirected block breaking and coordinated, politically orientated block breaking are two different things.

It is entirely possible to implement a system of block protection that is compatible with the idea of war between cities. You're just not thinking creatively enough.

The war mechanic is necessary for another reason: The dispersion of players through time zones. If a town didn't have to declare war on another town, they could simply walk in and destroy it when all (or most) of the players are offline. This could be interpreted as an "ambush", but it really isn't much good for gameplay, as the attack will be easy for the attackers and upsetting for the victims. Combine this with the fact that, unlike IRL, players don't have a constant presence on the forum, so even if the attack was uncovered, nothing could be done about it. If the war mechanic was put in place, it would allow the defenders to prepare a defence or even pre-emptively attack.

With a block protection system, they couldn't simply walk into town and destroy it when all (or most) of the players are offline unless they wanted to take the time to do so. The point of a block protection system is not to make it impossible to grief, but to make it time consuming to grief, because that deters griefers. Is it really so horrible if it takes ten people an hour to destroy a town? Shouldn't it be time consuming and labor-intensive to destroy a town that people worked so hard to build? It should. Destroying a town isn't something you should be able to do in minutes, even with a large group of people. It should take a large amount of time. To offset this, there should be "siege weapons" added that can be built that reduce the time it takes to destroy protected blocks, but are very resource-intensive to make, so that only groups of people could get them.

The war system does not introduce rigidity,

Yes, it does. Its very nature does. It limits. It confines.

nor does it prevent players using their creativity while playing. For example, what you said about trading to the enemy, what about the war mechanic stops you doing that exactly ? It's not like you can't enter an enemy town, you just can't break things. The politics of the server will still be just as complex with a GUI (which as danny pointed out, is necessary for larger servers where there may be many factions) as it only explains your own political relations with other towns (information which is available already, presuming you have someone recording it). It is also believable and realistic. Can you seriously tell me that factions in the past would not keep a record of the political relations with other nations?

It is not believable and realistic. There is nowhere I can go in my town to look up an official list of what the relationship of the United States is with every other country on the world. And a GUI/list is not necessary for larger servers. I don't think you understand what the word necessary means. It means you literally cannot do without it. Oxygen is necessary for life. This system that lists faction relationships is not necessary for the functioning of a town system. It's simply a crutch for lazy people.

The only thing the war system does is attempt to level a playing field which is set off kilter by issues caused by the fact that this game is a game. In a constantly populated server, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, this is simply not feasible, so we as players need help.

Once again, a properly thought out block protection system solves all these problems, without creating needless complexity and extraneous crap.

How would you not be able to lie ?

It's not like the GUI would list all members of that faction. If you approached someone and they didn't know what faction you belonged to, how would they know ?

Alternatively, if they did find out your faction, the more sensible players who kept track of server politics would know anyway. The GUI doesn't tell you anything new, it just makes it easier to find.

What is the point of this if it doesn't list who is in what faction? And if the more "sensible players keep track of server politics" then why do you need it in the first place? You're making my point for me: It's entirely for lazy people who can't be bothered to ask simple questions and need everything spoon fed to them and let me tell you something: Terrafirmacraft is not about spoon-feeding things to the players.

Yes, it does pander to peoples laziness.

Thanks you for admitting that this system is entirely unneeded.

In the same way that wheelbarrows IRL pander to peoples laziness. It makes a job easier. I don't see you complaining that hauling rocks isn't hard and tedious enough .....

Apples and Oranges. Wheelbarrows are necessary because of the physical limitations of the human body. There is only so much that a human being can carry. The wheelbarrow amplifies the human ability to carry things. This system which you and others propose does not amplify the ability in which the game is played, it limits and constricts for no god damned reason.

[edit] dropped a negator

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Wait wait wait wait, what?

At the beginning of my post I specifically said that computer controlled law enforcement wasn't being asked for, I know that doing so would be nigh impossible.

All I said was that there is still a need for laws to be recorded and the Home Stone provides that and since the Home Stone is already going to be a thing, why make the storage of a list of laws outside of the home stone since according to the OP, it would store information on the town. You give the town owner a screen where he can type in a list of laws. All that would be is words, like what I am typing now, not game play parameters, that would be just stupid. I did say that a way the Home Stone could be used to enforce laws is through the owner of the Town. The town's owner decides the sale of property in his town and who is a citizen, you break his laws, he maybe imprisons you in a designated jail, you act up again he takes away your land using the Home Stone, you doing something really stupid after that, he revokes your citizenship. That would all be player controlled, I never said it would be automated. The Home Stone would just provide a means to felicitate those actions without the need of typing chat commands which Bioxx has said is one of the reasons for the Home Stone in the OP.

Right now there is no way to actually enforce anything without getting moderators involved. Giving town owners the right to revoke land, assign to jail, invoke monetary fines, or revoke citizenship is a way to enforce laws and keeps moderators out of player game play.

So all you're saying is that making a sign out of sticks and wood is too damned hard.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is already a perfectly good method of conveying information to other players while offline: A sign.

There may be a need for a special sign that can only be placed by the town's owner, but there is no need to needlessly complicated something in the way you are suggesting.

As to penalties for things, you are once again needlessly complicating things without understanding the complexities involved in enforcement. How do you assign and revoke land? You need a mechanic to do that. Invoking monetary fines requires a mechanic, not only for a system of money, but for levying fines and taxes, which does not need a specific system of its own. Revoking citizenship is easy. If you would read the post I made, the system I suggest allows for everything needed to create as complex a system of laws as you could ever want, while still being mechanic-light.

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​Untrue. Read the post I wrote about the system I proposed. It's entirely possible to create a form of block protection that can be bypassed by a determined individual with a great deal of time, or by a determined group of individuals by pooling their time and resources, while still stopping the vast majority of griefers, because your average griefer just wants to break something, not devote their time to breaking things.

This, in my eyes, is far worse than a war system. Why should it take me extra time to break a block just because it belongs to someone ? That is ridiculous. It shouldn't take determination to break blocks. If you wanted that, why not make everyone go to war using their fists ?

It is entirely possible to implement a system of block protection that is compatible with the idea of war between cities. You're just not thinking creatively enough.

With a block protection system, they couldn't simply walk into town and destroy it when all (or most) of the players are offline unless they wanted to take the time to do so. The point of a block protection system is not to make it impossible to grief, but to make it time consuming to grief, because that deters griefers. Is it really so horrible if it takes ten people an hour to destroy a town? Shouldn't it be time consuming and labor-intensive to destroy a town that people worked so hard to build? It should. Destroying a town isn't something you should be able to do in minutes, even with a large group of people. It should take a large amount of time. To offset this, there should be "siege weapons" added that can be built that reduce the time it takes to destroy protected blocks, but are very resource-intensive to make, so that only groups of people could get them.

No, it shouldn't be very labour intensive to destroy peoples prized possessions in war, namely because it isn't difficult to mine a huge area out in a short space of time. If it took 4 hours to make a small mine, then I would agree, but seeing as you can demolish the natural landscape in minutes, I don't see why peoples stuff should be special. Even if it only took an hour, when was the last time you slept for a single hour, then woke up and jumped straight on your MC server to check that your town wasn't gone ?

It is not believable and realistic. There is nowhere I can go in my town to look up an official list of what the relationship of the United States is with every other country on the world. And a GUI/list is necessary for larger servers. I don't think you understand what the word necessary means. It means you literally cannot do without it. Oxygen is necessary for life. This system that lists faction relationships is not necessary for the functioning of a town system. It's simply a crutch for lazy people.

Perhaps not, now that there are so many nations involved in global politics, but this would not have been so hard when there was less factions to cover. Yes, if you use the literal interpretation of the word necessary then it isn't, but as I was clearly using it in the hyperbolic sense, you are nitpicking.

What is the point of this if it doesn't list who is in what faction? And if the more "sensible players keep track of server politics" then why do you need it in the first place? You're making my point for me: It's entirely for lazy people who can't be bothered to ask simple questions and need everything spoon fed to them and let me tell you something: Terrafirmacraft is not about spoon-feeding things to the players.

Thanks you for admitting that this system is entirely unneeded.

The point is that you know your relations with factions not players. Why on earth would it list every player on the server, and whether you're at war with him or not ? The purpose of the GUI is to give a general overview of the political state of the server. It's not tell you which players you need to look out for, but which factions are liable to attack you etc.

You are quite right, we shouldn't spoon feed information to the players. Why do we have a blacksmithing bar at all actually, we should just let them guess. Oh and the temperature gague ? Forget that, it's information, we don't like information here.

It's not spoon feeding them vital in game information, it's preventing unnecessary (and non gameplay enhancing) confusion.

Honestly tell me you wouldn't get angry if new players came to you and asked "are we friends with x faction ?" .. Yep, sounds like a good time to me ¬.¬

Admitting it panders to laziness and admitting it is useless are two different things. For example, calculators pander to laziness. They are also not necessary, as we got by before they were around.

​Apples and Oranges. Wheelbarrows are necessary because of the physical limitations of the human body. There is only so much that a human being can carry. The wheelbarrow amplifies the human ability to carry things. This system which you and others propose does not amplify the ability in which the game is played, it limits and constricts for no god damned reason.

Not true. By your own definition, wheelbarrows are largely unnecessary actually. If you are trying to carry a large amount of rubble, why not just move it a few pieces at a time. Oxygen is necessary, wheelbarrows aren't ;)

The thing I was referring to was the GUI which aids the user in understanding political relations on the server and prevents needless agravation for the old players, as you won't have people asking about diplomacy every 5 minutes.

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So all you're saying is that making a sign out of sticks and wood is too damned hard.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is already a perfectly good method of conveying information to other players while offline: A sign.

There may be a need for a special sign that can only be placed by the town's owner, but there is no need to needlessly complicated something in the way you are suggesting.

As to penalties for things, you are once again needlessly complicating things without understanding the complexities involved in enforcement. How do you assign and revoke land? You need a mechanic to do that. Invoking monetary fines requires a mechanic, not only for a system of money, but for levying fines and taxes, which does not need a specific system of its own. Revoking citizenship is easy. If you would read the post I made, the system I suggest allows for everything needed to create as complex a system of laws as you could ever want, while still being mechanic-light.

Ok, first off, I am going to say you need to settle down, your posts are coming off as very hostile and the one you did above the one I am quoting really proves that. I don't know what your issue is, but waving away anything you do not personal like as "pandering to the stupid and lazy" is not a debate, it is not a proper response to a debate, it does not keep up a conversation. Second, you seem to like to not read my posts, this is at the very least the second time you have done so. The first is saying that I was for computer regulated laws, which the post you quoted had nothing to do about and even admitted right off the bat, that no one was really talking about to begin with.

With that said, lets go onto this. No, I never said that making a sign is "too damned hard". I said that signs are a poor method of conveying large amounts of information for the following reasons:

1) Signs are very limited on the characters they display, they are better suited for telling you what street you are on, or who owns this house.

2) Because of the limitation of character space, you need large swaths of space to plays lots and lots of signs. This looks ugly, is not organized, takes a long time to update, and fails to prevent enemies from knowing information about the town. You yourself said that placing lots of torches to cover areas in lights is ugly and were asking for light sources with larger radius. By your own arguments this isn't needed, there is no need to reinvent the torch, just use tons and tons of torches.

3) Because Notch is a bit of a hack sometimes when it comes to coding, he implemented signs in a very ass backwards way. When you are on a server and have lots and lots of signs with lots and lots of text on them, that generates an incredible amount of entity lag that affects the entire server. Even if you have all the signs deep underground with a layers upon layers of stone between you and them, they will still render their text when the chunk is open. Relying on a system that impacts server performance is not good.

4) What is the Home Stone and why do we need a block to represent the town?Added 8/13

I think a lot of you are failing to grasp why we need a stone Home Stone in the first place. First of all the name is taken from the World of Gor series of books. Secondly, I like to let things be represented in the world whenever possible. From a gameplay perspective, it offers a way for players to easily learn what they need to about a town such as laws or w/e else. I highly dislike the player having to type in commands into chat in order to play the game so they need. Also it offers something concrete in the world in which the supporting code is operated around. If I try to abstract out things such as borders of a town etc(while possible) it becomes a lot harder.

When you are on a 60 slot server, information needs to be as clean cut as possible, needs to be as easily accessible as possible and needs to not bog down the game. Storing information in the Home Stone literally does not detract from the game at all, does not make it easier, does not make it more tedious, does not remove fun.

It does not "needlessly complicate things". You, as a town owner, need to set a Home Stone to make your town. Why spread out all your towns information away from the thing that makes your town a town. How does having it so when a citizen right clicks the Home Stone they get an option to view the town's laws complicating things, how does being able to copy that information to a Tome complicate things. You are not giving me reasons why outside of complaining that it would make the game to easy (how?) or that it nurtures the stupid or lazy (poor excuse and as pointed at the beginning, is a bad reply for debate). You could argue back and forth about the assignment of land and what not, but it really isn't that hard to figure out, a basic beginning Home Stone grants you ownership of a grid of chunks, the owner of the town can sell those chunks to citizens. Very simple. But honestly, there is no reason to argue about this until Bioxx gives us more of his thoughts on what he means by giving players the tools to define and establish towns, though he did say on the second page:

"Player A purchases/creates a Home Stone. The Home Stone is a special engraved stone encrusted with jewels and metal which acts as the founding stone for a town. Depending on the resources used, the radius is larger or smaller. Once a player places a Home Stone, they become the mayor of the town, able to sell or rent out land to other players. Players can register themselves as citizens of a town as well as pay taxes or w/e we add. A neighboring town can declare war on another town which would remove the special protections that are in place to prevent griefing for those that are citizens of each town. Towns should have a minimum number of citizens in order to prevent abuse of this system.

Ideas:

  • Players can buy land which extends from 128 to 256 where no-one may build.
  • Players can buy mineral rights which extend from 0-128 wherein no-one may mine.
  • Players can build outside the city limits freely but will be subject to the anarchy of the wild.
  • Monsters will not spawn within city limits.
  • Rarely NPC raiders may attack towns.
The more things that are handled by the server and not by OPs or Admins the better as far as I'm concerned. Nothing is more lame than playing on your favorite server and no-one is online to accept you into the town or w/e."

So I am just running off that. Lastly, I only mentioned revoking property rights as an example, no need to go off on a tangent about how giving the owner of a Town the ability to, you know, enforce his own rules as something bad because you disagreed with a single example I gave.

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This, in my eyes, is far worse than a war system. Why should it take me extra time to break a block just because it belongs to someone ? That is ridiculous. It shouldn't take determination to break blocks. If you wanted that, why not make everyone go to war using their fists ?

To deter assholes who get their kicks out of being assholes to people. If it takes me time and effort to build something, it should take someone else time and effort to destroy it. There needs to be a balance between security in one's possessions and the freedom to be an asshole. It should be possible to be an asshole, but not easy or quick. The fact that you want it to be so easy to grief makes me think that you are the very sort of person that a block protection system is designed to thwart.

No, it shouldn't be very labour intensive to destroy peoples prized possessions in war, namely because it isn't difficult to mine a huge area out in a short space of time. If it took 4 hours to make a small mine, then I would agree, but seeing as you can demolish the natural landscape in minutes, I don't see why peoples stuff should be special. Even if it only took an hour, when was the last time you slept for a single hour, then woke up and jumped straight on your MC server to check that your town wasn't gone ?

Please, go read a book on warfare, particularly in the period for which Terrafirmacraft is supposed to be set. It was incredibly resource intensive to destroy any fortified city. So resource intensive, in fact, that the best way of defeating the city was to simply starve them out. Even when siege weapons were available, it still took a considerable amount of time to destroy walls, and siege weapons were just as likely to be used to fling heads and plagued corpses over the city walls as they were to be used to destroy the city walls.

It is not believable that it should be easy or fast for a single person or a group of persons to destroy a city.

Perhaps not, now that there are so many nations involved in global politics, but this would not have been so hard when there was less factions to cover. Yes, if you use the literal interpretation of the word necessary then it isn't, but as I was clearly using it in the hyperbolic sense, you are nitpicking.

Maybe you've never actually had to argue with someone before who know how to argue, but the best kind of correct is technically correct. You are wrong. It doesn't matter how wrong you are. You are still wrong. "Just a little" late is still late, and "just a little illegal" is still illegal.

The point is that you know your relations with factions not players. Why on earth would it list every player on the server, and whether you're at war with him or not ? The purpose of the GUI is to give a general overview of the political state of the server. It's not tell you which players you need to look out for, but which factions are liable to attack you etc.

You are quite right, we shouldn't spoon feed information to the players. Why do we have a blacksmithing bar at all actually, we should just let them guess. Oh and the temperature gague ? Forget that, it's information, we don't like information here.

Apples and Oranges. A blacksmithing bar is necessary because you need some sort of feedback to determine how well you're doing. In real life, this feedback is easily available because I can just look at the damned item I'm smithing and figure out what it can and cannot take. You can't do that in TFC, hence the bar. Similarly, in real life I can determine how hot something is by just looking at the damned thing in question and using its color to gauge how hot it is. Which is what the temperature gauge in TFC amounts to.

It's not spoon feeding them vital in game information, it's preventing unnecessary (and non gameplay enhancing) confusion.

No, it's limiting the freedom of the players. This is a sandbox game. This is unnecessary handholding. You're perfectly capable of finding out what faction relations are by asking other players.

Honestly tell me you wouldn't get angry if new players came to you and asked "are we friends with x faction ?" .. Yep, sounds like a good time to me ¬.¬

No, I wouldn't get angry. I do not get angry at people who ask legitimate questions. I do, however, get angry at people who cannot understand basic concepts.

Admitting it panders to laziness and admitting it is useless are two different things. For example, calculators pander to laziness. They are also not necessary, as we got by before they were around.

Calculators do not pander to laziness. They exist due to the fact that it is impossible for the average human being to do even simple mathematics in their head. Go ahead and tell me in less than ten seconds what the square root of 5836729 is. You can't do that. Not because you're lazy, but because of the very real limitations of your brain. The calculator is, ideally, a tool, not a crutch. This system you propose is not a tool, it is a crutch.

Not true. By your own definition, wheelbarrows are largely unnecessary actually. If you are trying to carry a large amount of rubble, why not just move it a few pieces at a time. Oxygen is necessary, wheelbarrows aren't ;)

You've obviously never done any sort of hard manual labor. If you had, you would not say that "wheelbarrows are largely unnecessary." Have you ever had to move a three hundred pound piece of rock that you can't break into smaller pieces because it needs to be intact? A wheelbarrow is necessary in such a situation, unless you have better tools, like a bulldozer.

The thing I was referring to was the GUI which aids the user in understanding political relations on the server and prevents needless agravation for the old players, as you won't have people asking about diplomacy every 5 minutes.

I doubt that one would be asked that question every five minutes. In fact, I'm sure it wouldn't happen, and I think you know that, and I think you're deliberately lying because your point is unsupportable.

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[snip]

First off, you're mistaking passion for anger. That's understandable, because this is the Internet, and subtle things like tone of voice and facial expressions cannot be conveyed via mere text.

Secondly, I'm not responding just to you in specific. I reply to specific things you say, but my words are targeted at a wider audience. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but to make a point.

Thirdly, I'm done "arguing" with you. You have made it obvious that it's not worth the time or the effort. I can explain things to you until I become arthritic, but I cannot make you understand.

[edit] replaced "under become arthritic" with "until I become arthritic"

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Furthermore, in regards to the above comment about calculators, before we had calculators we had other tools we used in their place, such a slide rules. We no longer use slide rules (generally) because calculators are more efficient and capable of a wider range of computations in a smaller amount of time. You still have to understand the concepts behind the math to make that calculator do the work.

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First off, you're mistaking passion for anger. That's understandable, because this is the Internet, and subtle things like tone of voice and facial expressions cannot be conveyed via mere text.

Secondly, I'm not responding just to you in specific. I reply to specific things you say, but my words are targeted at a wider audience. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but to make a point.

Thirdly, I'm done "arguing" with you. You have made it obvious that it's not worth the time or the effort. I can explain things to you under I become arthritic, but I cannot make you understand.

But that is the thing, there was no debate, every time you quoted me, you just responded with the same bit about pandering to laziness or stupidity or that we already have signs, or that I was over complicating the system (when I am trying to organize it or provide tools for players to do so) you never gave me a legitimate reason why there shouldn't be a centralized way to store information on the town that didn't rely on a very poor way of doing so. We haven't even been arguing. I'm trying to hold a discussion, trying to figure out why you think storing information for players at the Home Stone is such a bad decision, you are not really giving me good answers, and I've come up with counter points to show that what reasons you have given really are not all that viable. I am not failing to understand, it is really more that you are replying nothing, turning away from the debate seems really a poor way of going about it. Hell, I even just read all of your posts again since we've began talking tonight and I still only see the two or so same points repeated at me with no more backing when I make counter points.

Furthermore, in regards to the above comment about calculators, before we had calculators we had other tools we used in their place, such a slide rules. We no longer use slide rules (generally) because calculators are more efficient and capable of a wider range of computations in a smaller amount of time. You still have to understand the concepts behind the math to make that calculator do the work.

And wouldn't an easy to use, compact, clean and non server performance impacting way of storing information be a more efficient upgrade to signs?

It is not believable and realistic. There is nowhere I can go in my town to look up an official list of what the relationship of the United States is with every other country on the world. And a GUI/list is not necessary for larger servers. I don't think you understand what the word necessary means. It means you literally cannot do without it. Oxygen is necessary for life. This system that lists faction relationships is not necessary for the functioning of a town system. It's simply a crutch for lazy people.

http://www.state.gov.../list/index.htm

That website provides a list of countries where you can look up diplomats, vital information on the country, history of important political events and a bit on the countries relation with the U.S.

It is of course not likely that you'd be able to pull up that information at your local city hall, but that is only because of the length of history for the US and mere size of the world and such. On a server where you are talking about a much smaller world and less factions to worry about, finding out this information and having it recorded in a local location is believable.

--

The final bit I will say to you on this subject, is that I really do not understand your passion for pissing on those who may not pick up on things as quickly, or the stupid as you like to keep referring to them. Not everyone is able to keep up on shit, not everyone has the time. Some people just want to get on, tend to their animals, build a house, or go do some mining. Calling people who'd rather do other things lazy or people who have trouble following recent events stupid is really not that fair. hell, even players who are all in for the political play would benefit from being able to store information. Information storage is not a crutch, if it was, then we should get rid of the wiki since only the stupid and lazy need to look up the basics instead of spending hours in game trying to figure it out themselves. You have a very black and white argument, that is all I will say to you.

--

Actually, I'm going to bed, it is five in the morning and I got stuff to do in three hours, where did the time go.

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To deter assholes who get their kicks out of being assholes to people. If it takes me time and effort to build something, it should take someone else time and effort to destroy it. There needs to be a balance between security in one's possessions and the freedom to be an asshole. It should be possible to be an asshole, but not easy or quick. The fact that you want it to be so easy to grief makes me think that you are the very sort of person that a block protection system is designed to thwart.

I wouldn't ever grief someones possessions outside of a strictly "war" orientated setting. I do not want it to be easy to grief, I want it to be impossible. I want it to be as easy as it is in other aspects of the game to destroy blocks in a suitable frame of reference.

Please, go read a book on warfare, particularly in the period for which Terrafirmacraft is supposed to be set. It was incredibly resource intensive to destroy any fortified city. So resource intensive, in fact, that the best way of defeating the city was to simply starve them out. Even when siege weapons were available, it still took a considerable amount of time to destroy walls, and siege weapons were just as likely to be used to fling heads and plagued corpses over the city walls as they were to be used to destroy the city walls.

It is not believable that it should be easy or fast for a single person or a group of persons to destroy a city.

I know plenty about medieval warfare, and have read books about the topic. The reason I suggest making it fast is:

1) Starving players out isn't possible in TFC.

2) We're playing a game where you use a pickaxe alone to mine through solid rock. No. Just no.

It is as believable that a group of people could destroy a town as it is for a person to fell a sequoia in seconds with a stone axe. Why should blocks suddenly become harder by merit of them simply being owned. That is what strikes me as unbelievable.

Maybe you've never actually had to argue with someone before who know how to argue, but the best kind of correct is technically correct. You are wrong. It doesn't matter how wrong you are. You are still wrong. "Just a little" late is still late, and "just a little illegal" is still illegal.

Using a word in a hyperbolic sense and being wrong are two different things. If you refer to the diplomacy issue, see Enzers above post.

Apples and Oranges. A blacksmithing bar is necessary because you need some sort of feedback to determine how well you're doing. In real life, this feedback is easily available because I can just look at the damned item I'm smithing and figure out what it can and cannot take. You can't do that in TFC, hence the bar. Similarly, in real life I can determine how hot something is by just looking at the damned thing in question and using its color to gauge how hot it is. Which is what the temperature gauge in TFC amounts to.

True, I should have compared it to the calendar. That provides information which is (largely) available through the observation of fruit tree growth, snow etc., yet that is still in game.

No, it's limiting the freedom of the players. This is a sandbox game. This is unnecessary handholding. You're perfectly capable of finding out what faction relations are by asking other players.

That relates to war, not the GUI. As I see it, you are arguing against both seperately here. Tell me how the GUI limits the freedom of the players ? Yes you are, just like it would be possible to find out what had already been suggested on this forum by asking people, or using the search bar, but we made a suggestion directory to make it easier. Putting already relatively easily accessible information in an almost instantly accessible format is good practice for preventing needless (and dull) work, which wouldn't contribute to the game in any way.

No, I wouldn't get angry. I do not get angry at people who ask legitimate questions. I do, however, get angry at people who cannot understand basic concepts.

What basic concept am I failing to understand exactly ? I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.

Calculators do not pander to laziness. They exist due to the fact that it is impossible for the average human being to do even simple mathematics in their head. Go ahead and tell me in less than ten seconds what the square root of 5836729 is. You can't do that. Not because you're lazy, but because of the very real limitations of your brain. The calculator is, ideally, a tool, not a crutch. This system you propose is not a tool, it is a crutch.

Actually, in their most common usages, they really are used in the same way as this GUI would be. I would argue that the majority of calculator users do not use them for questions like the root of 5836729, they use them in everyday situations to add simple numbers and do basic maths, because they can't be bothered doing it themselves. it is a crutch, but it's certainly not one I begrudge people for using.

You've obviously never done any sort of hard manual labor. If you had, you would not say that "wheelbarrows are largely unnecessary." Have you ever had to move a three hundred pound piece of rock that you can't break into smaller pieces because it needs to be intact? A wheelbarrow is necessary in such a situation, unless you have better tools, like a bulldozer.

Well, that was presumptious. I have, in fact, done hard manual labour. I did indeed use a wheelbarrow to shift large amounts of rubble. I did (as you can see) specifiy that the wheelbarrow was an appropriate metaphor in a lot (but not all) cases. Again, returning to my point about common usage, not many people have occasion to move 300lb rocks. A lot of people do, however, use wheelbarrows to carry several things in tasks such as gardening, where they could easily carry these things individually.

I remember your vehement argument against overhauling tree cutting and the needless busy-body work it would bring about. Can you not see the parallels between this GUI issue and that log cutting one ? Yes, you can find out this information, but it takes time which could be used doing other things in game which are actually fun.

I doubt that one would be asked that question every five minutes. In fact, I'm sure it wouldn't happen, and I think you know that, and I think you're deliberately lying because your point is unsupportable.

I actually think that you have presumed entirely too much about how I think. I do think it would be a common question because people forget these things very easily. Not many players would have the presence of mind to write these things down, so any time there was potential interaction between factions, the question could easily be asked. Perhaps they wouldn't be asked, but only in the way that people don't bother to find out if their suggestion has already been made, it would have little to do with not needing to, but the players not bothering (and potentially causing issues because of it)

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Furthermore, in regards to the above comment about calculators, before we had calculators we had other tools we used in their place, such a slide rules. We no longer use slide rules (generally) because calculators are more efficient and capable of a wider range of computations in a smaller amount of time. You still have to understand the concepts behind the math to make that calculator do the work.

So calculators were invented despite their job already being performed by other tools to save time and make things easier ?

Kind of like how a GUI which explained diplomatic relations replaces other tools to save time and make things easier ?

Yes, you do need to understand maths to make calculators work, but they are a lot easier than slide rules and log tables. If we follow your logic, as long as there is a tool for the job, why make another one which is better suited or more efficient ? It would be little work (in the grand scheme of this kingdoms project) to add the GUI and it would make players lifes easier in a way which didn't make the game itself any easier, I just fail to see what the problem is here. If I was proposing a giant rubber duck which shit out red steel tools and golden apples, then I would agree with you.

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I would like to see NPC shop keepers.

The player can add items to a locked chest. The NPC would be able to offer items in the chest and place items in the chest. The player would set buy / sell prices for items. The NPC would then buy / sell based on player guidelines (including a Max / Min stock) to other plays that right clicked on them.

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I would like to see NPC shop keepers.

The player can add items to a locked chest. The NPC would be able to offer items in the chest and place items in the chest. The player would set buy / sell prices for items. The NPC would then buy / sell based on player guidelines (including a Max / Min stock) to other plays that right clicked on them.

The job of buy/selling should be a players task, not some no-life npc that has to be coded to have skill, as opposed to true player craftsmanship being sold. The reason for shops is so skilled players can show their ware that the run of the mill player can't achieve such as fine marble statues that only a couple people on a server know how to make fast and without cracks/blemishes

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The job of buy/selling should be a players task, not some no-life npc that has to be coded to have skill, as opposed to true player craftsmanship being sold. The reason for shops is so skilled players can show their ware that the run of the mill player can't achieve such as fine marble statues that only a couple people on a server know how to make fast and without cracks/blemishes

hmm well no human can be online 24/7 and nobody is stupid enough to spend all his online-time in a shop. that said, i'm not too fond of adding a shopkeeper npc, but rather just chest/signshops.

we're not talking about some stupid statues, we're talking about everyday needs: food,tools,... not some statue to decorate your house, tbh i don't really care how 'artists' would sell their stuff.

IMO you somehow got a wrong idea about shops on servers. the whole reason behind shops is distribution of needed supplies (like in real life there are a hell of a lot more supermarkets (food) compared to decoration-shops ) you can't expect every player on a server to start like a damn hermit and try to gather/mine/melt/craft/... everything himself.

it is after all the 'kingdoms' brainstorming. people should have some kind of primary skills with which they can earn money to buy stuff like food ,in shops that is, a miner that only knows how to mine can't gather his own food, needs a blacksmith to melt and work his materials,...

anyways, to get back on the unmanned shops vs player-manned shops: imagine the playerbase you'd need to keep just one shop open 24/7 for a whole month... it's just not doable to keep your shop open all the time, you probably don't want to share the profit you make off the shop with 30 employees right? so you'll be doing it alone or with a few peeps, meaning you'll miss out on a crapload of potential customers each day, with it earning a lot less than you could.

due to the fact that minecraft is still minecraft and most peeps still have a life and aren't online 24/7 having player-manned shops is a crappy idea, certainly for small servers, when you desperately need food, don't have anything left and for some reason can't make it yourself then the last thing you want is the shopkeepers being offline, cause that would mean certain death. other peeps that don't have any ores left, can't start mining again until the shopkeeper for the shop that sells tools comes online.....

as you see, for a server to succeed while having player-manned shops, you'd need a massive player-base and since the server probably has more than one kingdom, i'm not talking about +-30 peeps, no, for player-manned shops to really be useful you'd need at least a playerbase of 100-200 regular peeps per kingdom (since not everyone can be online at the same hour/day/...)

on the other hand: signshops will give you none of the aforementioned problems. yes, it might be unrealistic, but adding an npc-shopkeeper would fix that (but would also mean a lot more memory-usage then with signshops)

P.S. don't forget, MC 1.3.1 already has an NPC trading system in place, bioxx could just change that one to be a bit more usable and suited for TFC

P.P.S. i might sound aggressive in my post, but i kind off do in most of them xP seems like i really get fired up when writing down arguments for something ^^ anyways, i mean no offense to anyone

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This "debate" contains a lot of really bad debating tools, i mean, insulting the other members, judging their life based on a few posts is silly. so please, guys, keep it cordial, and remember, this is a game, not the Paris Peace talks (korean conflict) so no need to get passionate about it, can we get back to discussing the game please?

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about npc shops why not just use do somthing like chest shops where you use a sign to buy and sell

now on the homestone politicall thing yes yes yes yes

I hate walls of signs for rules and such it is ugly, takes up way to much space and apparently bad for the server

for you who disagrees its essentially like keeping a book that records whats been done or having a town billboard, which was done in medieval times and is done now on the internet.

and giving players a place to read information instead of asking over and over and over and over and over and over and over

is as annoying and that->

I do not want to be on a server where I can log on and not have a clue whats going on untill I get ambushed by and entire army while I go to trade some charcole

side note what doese w/e mean and what all does op OP mean ive seen it used in multiple ways

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can someone with some programing/design know how think of a way to homestead or have protectiong for a nomad

cause with inventory how it is, and will probably get harder, you can't have good rescources all in you inventory and so far the only way to be protected is live in a well populated town.

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